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Swede1304

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Swede1304, I am willing to stand corrected on this but I am of the opinion that the skills used in the day job on the factory floor or in an office of employment involving paid people are not always the same that are required when it comes down to dealing with unpaid police volunteers, there are many people who would like to think that they are but I am not so sure,certainly positive/negative indicators etc are most important and no question about it, but there are other little skills which are needed and are very hard to define unless you can see them in action,it's a question of motivation,and how to do it, not the ones who do eight or ten hours a month or more and keep their fingers on the pulse by attending training even if it's the last thing they would rather be doing on a Thursday night ,but the ones who have lost their way a bit, the last thing specials need when they have turned out for duty on a Friday night or weekend is someone ordering them about unessarily albeit with the best will in the world, clearly there is a status quo to be maintained and the special Sgts/section officers who know what that is are often those who have been in a while, "been there done that" so to speak,in other words they need to know what's important and what's not important.However i do appreciate that this is not always possible, older specials sometimes neither have the time or the inclination to be a special sergeant/section officer.

That is why I talked about the format of the interviews, I wonder what three questions could be put to prospective special sergeants/section officers at their interview? (that question might make a topic sometime)incidentally our force and a lot of others will be calling our section officers special sergeants on April 1st.same with district/div officers to special inspector. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.Ha.Rich.

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Hi Rich

A very good point you made there about the volunteer part it does not need a rigid approach to management like setting targets like IPS to be achived by a certain time etc. Volunteering is a personal choice that is why we volunteer our time. I personally think our role as supervisors should be one of supporting the officer in achiveing the minimum hours with as little impact on their day job and other commitments as I think this promotes retention. And on the flip side overdoing the hours training as it can be that you start feeling compelled to support the district in achiving their targets my working excessive hours etc I think many of you know what can happen when you do this. I was in the latter camp and it began to take over but now I have a work life SC balance that suits me my and my partner and I still exceed the 16 Hrs minimum a month. The Policing side has an important part to play but you could be 8+ years in the job and still learning new things as an SC and a PC. I went through the same format as you when I applied but I supose I could have left it well alone and just plodded on until I got in to the regulars. But I belive in giving something back and pushing my self that little bit more to challenge myself. There will be further posts opening up soon and I wish you best of luck.

Swede

Edited by Swede1304

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"If, even on the old HO Accelerated Promotion Scheme, you (as a regular) had to have done at least your first 2 years in before getting a board, let alone an appointment, why should it be quicker for Specials?"

Just a thought.

With the influx of masses of new SC there has had to be an expansion in supervisors and some relaxation of usual service length expectations - but as long as they don't drop standards and they are capable it shouldn't be as much as an issue as a S/Sgt doesn't have the same responsibilities & authority as a regular.

I'm in year 5/6 of service and find that about right to have some supervisory responsibilities (they twisted my arm last year!) and wouldn't have felt capable earlier in service.

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Managing volunteers isn't easy. I've experienced regular supervisors who try to manage use in the same way they manage regular staff. Surprise surprise, this isn't very effective.

One key thing a lot of supervisors forget, is that at any time, if I wish to do so, I can stop volunteering my freetime. Ordering specials about, trying to discipline them etc doesn't work if there isn't a benefit to the specials. If they don't want to be there, they won't be there.

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Managing volunteers isn't easy. I've experienced regular supervisors who try to manage use in the same way they manage regular staff. Surprise surprise, this isn't very effective.

One key thing a lot of supervisors forget, is that at any time, if I wish to do so, I can stop volunteering my freetime. Ordering specials about, trying to discipline them etc doesn't work if there isn't a benefit to the specials. If they don't want to be there, they won't be there.

The Response team I work on gets a lot of Specials because the Sergeants and the Inspector are so understanding. If you feel a bit worse for wear or just need to get off for any number of reasons, go and see the Sgt, let them know. If it's not too busy they usually say something along the lines of 'Yeah, get yourself off mate. If I were you I wouldn't have come in in the first place, but you're not normal are you eggnog?' (my Polis nickname) Cue laughter and see you soons.

On the other hand when I first started an NPT Sergeant couldn't care less. She kept on crewing me with people who were leaving early, I think I was crewed with about 3 different people in about 4 hours. I'd like to think she knew what time her PCs were knocking off, however she just couldn't be bothered to find someone who was on for the full shift and just paired me with whoever was closest.

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That basically shows that your force and special constabulary is rather poor. Unless they have previous police experience that should never happen.

Try being managed by them!

The Response team I work on gets a lot of Specials because the Sergeants and the Inspector are so understanding.

We've all pretty much been banned from Response - NPT hours only. Can go on Response with S/Sgt's approval 24 hours in advanced or be put on unsatisfactory performance measures... Almost a blanket ban as they will not give permission if you have done less than 16 hrs NPT and there is no "Special" Operation running.

Unfortunately there is the same "Special Operation" running each and every weekend until Armageddon!

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We've all pretty much been banned from Response - NPT hours only. Can go on Response with S/Sgt's approval 24 hours in advanced or be put on unsatisfactory performance measures... Almost a blanket ban as they will not give permission if you have done less than 16 hrs NPT and there is no "Special" Operation running.

Unfortunately there is the same "Special Operation" running each and every weekend until Armageddon!

I would seriously consider handing in my warrant card if Hampshire tried to implement that policy.

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I would seriously consider handing in my warrant card if Hampshire tried to implement that policy.

Tell me about it... It is a Divisional ethos. Most of the Constabulary run operations and/or allow Specials to work with Immediate Response... pretty much leave them to it.

I have only been in for 6 months and this has just been implemented and I find it frustrating... My partner has been in for 3 years and she is now pretty much being forced out of the back door as she works (well over 16 hours per month) with the same Immediate Response team and has done unmolested for 2 years. Only recently one of our Specials Operations has become flavor of the month and if you don't do it, you're not a team player.

The problem is, this op targets under 18's and alcohol and as rewarding as it can be - 5 specials in the same car chasing kids all night becomes tedious when it's the only thing we can do week after week after week.

/Rant over!!

:backontopic: sorry!

Edited by MrDSP

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Tell me about it... It is a Divisional ethos. Most of the Constabulary run operations and/or allow Specials to work with Immediate Response... pretty much leave them to it.

I have only been in for 6 months and this has just been implemented and I find it frustrating... My partner has been in for 3 years and she is now pretty much being forced out of the back door as she works (well over 16 hours per month) with the same Immediate Response team and has done unmolested for 2 years. Only recently one of our Specials Operations has become flavor of the month and if you don't do it, you're not a team player.

The problem is, this op targets under 18's and alcohol and as rewarding as it can be - 5 specials in the same car chasing kids all night becomes tedious when it's the only thing we can do week after week after week.

/Rant over!!

:backontopic: sorry!

Perhaps we can talk about this on topic. Who implemented this policy and do you think that perhaps their skills managing volunteers is lacking? Are they newly promoted?

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Implemented by a PC who's job title is " *Special Operation Name* Coordinator" and enforced by smoke and mirrors!

Without getting myself in trouble... their management style is a required taste. Could be summarized by a recent Op I was involved with...

18 Specials on duty (there are only 8 regs on for the whole section... 6 immediate response and 2 cbm).

They decide to deploy us all in the same town, with 4 cars (Yes... there were cars driving around with 5 Specials in!) looking for kids and not doing any other jobs (even at times regs shouting up for assistance). This causes huge resentment from regs as you can imagine.

My current Sgt has been promoted within the past month and prior to that has been a Special for just over a year.

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Unfortunately there is the same "Special Operation" running each and every weekend until Armageddon!

Go in during the week :aok:

not doing any other jobs (even at times regs shouting up for assistance). This causes huge resentment from regs as you can imagine.

I'd have shouted up on the radio and assisted then faced whatever 'ill informed' music the bod that is rigidly enforcing the op decided to throw at me later.

Would they have expected you not to attend if an officer had an emergency activation?

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Go in during the week :aok:

Tried, they fathom out your evasive action and create an event with a S/Sgt on said days (such as Thursday) called "Mini *Special Operation Name*" - I kid you not! At least then you know you're not going to be shoved in the back of a car with 4 other Specials but you can kiss goodbye talking to or dealing with anybody over the age of 18!

I'd have shouted up on the radio and assisted then faced whatever 'ill informed' music the bod that is rigidly enforcing the op decided to throw at me later.

Would they have expected you not to attend if an officer had an emergency activation?

Yes, that's one for the future...

I can't say they would avoid an emergency activation but I can definitely say I have been in a car 3 up driving past a irate man acting in a very aggressive manor towards somebody through a window. When I said we should stop I was told "Not our remit for this operation" - less than 2 streets between us and the man and a Grade 1 comes in - man fitting description threatening another man with a knife on the street. Single crew immediate response shows up (another call sign backing but not in the same town) she asks for "urgent assistance" - when I mentioned we should go back up I was told we'd be "stuck with the log" - a load of rubbish I know.

When I tell other people at HQ for training they simply don't believe me.. the problem is the vast majority of SC's our division have less than 2 years service and have been railroaded into a single *Special Operation* that only ever deals with youths and alcohol (but not pubs! - they're full of people over 18!).

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Implemented by a PC who's job title is " *Special Operation Name* Coordinator" and enforced by smoke and mirrors!

Without getting myself in trouble... their management style is a required taste. Could be summarized by a recent Op I was involved with...

18 Specials on duty (there are only 8 regs on for the whole section... 6 immediate response and 2 cbm).

They decide to deploy us all in the same town, with 4 cars (Yes... there were cars driving around with 5 Specials in!) looking for kids and not doing any other jobs (even at times regs shouting up for assistance). This causes huge resentment from regs as you can imagine.

My current Sgt has been promoted within the past month and prior to that has been a Special for just over a year.

That is nothing but poor management and tasking. Have you raised this with your specials management?

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My SLT are trying to enforce us working with the NPTs. It's frustrating as we aren't very much use to the NPT for anything but high vis patrols. Working with response we can actually make a positive contribution. The response teams want us, and the NPT don't particularly care, but still the SLT push on with their plan to integrate us into the NPT teams.

I went a week or two ago to the NPT, took a vehicle and got told to patrol the Asb dispersal zones. I don't think it was half an hour before comms were asking if I'd back up to response jobs, as that's where I was needed.

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I can't say they would avoid an emergency activation but I can definitely say I have been in a car 3 up driving past a irate man acting in a very aggressive manor towards somebody through a window. When I said we should stop I was told "Not our remit for this operation" - less than 2 streets between us and the man and a Grade 1 comes in - man fitting description threatening another man with a knife on the street. Single crew immediate response shows up (another call sign backing but not in the same town) she asks for "urgent assistance" - when I mentioned we should go back up I was told we'd be "stuck with the log" - a load of rubbish I know.

That's bordering on the point I put a PSD complaint in. If I put up an immediate assistance call, I would want to know that everyone who could possibly come would. I wouldn't put up with this where I am - it's unprofessional and possibly a dereliction of duty.

My SLT are trying to enforce us working with the NPTs. It's frustrating as we aren't very much use to the NPT for anything but high vis patrols. Working with response we can actually make a positive contribution. The response teams want us, and the NPT don't particularly care, but still the SLT push on with their plan to integrate us into the NPT teams.

I went a week or two ago to the NPT, took a vehicle and got told to patrol the Asb dispersal zones. I don't think it was half an hour before comms were asking if I'd back up to response jobs, as that's where I was needed.

What force are you?

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Tried, they fathom out your evasive action and create an event with a S/Sgt on said days (such as Thursday) called "Mini *Special Operation Name*" - I kid you not! At least then you know you're not going to be shoved in the back of a car with 4 other Specials but you can kiss goodbye talking to or dealing with anybody over the age of 18!

Yes, that's one for the future...

I can't say they would avoid an emergency activation but I can definitely say I have been in a car 3 up driving past a irate man acting in a very aggressive manor towards somebody through a window. When I said we should stop I was told "Not our remit for this operation" - less than 2 streets between us and the man and a Grade 1 comes in - man fitting description threatening another man with a knife on the street. Single crew immediate response shows up (another call sign backing but not in the same town) she asks for "urgent assistance" - when I mentioned we should go back up I was told we'd be "stuck with the log" - a load of rubbish I know.

When I tell other people at HQ for training they simply don't believe me.. the problem is the vast majority of SC's our division have less than 2 years service and have been railroaded into a single *Special Operation* that only ever deals with youths and alcohol (but not pubs! - they're full of people over 18!).

Part of the problem is none of the higher ups respect how this works for us. Case in point, the Chief Super in my force now given 'command' of all Specials was one in '72 or so I think. He's still in the mindset of Specials working school crossings and village fetes but not a whole lot else. As there was no such thing as NPT as such in those days then it is seen that NPT is the natural progression of that type of Policing. Because they did it, we will do it.

Another case in point the POLICE/PARAMEDIC scheme. Two Specials, one from each of two of the three divisions covering my city crewed in a Paramedic responder car. Loved by all Specials who have done the duty, absolutley loved. The Amublance Service love it too. Response love it as they often get stood down if there's anything medical related. However, bosses don't. They believe that it's stealing their extra numbers, because that's what we are to them, numbers. The Chief Inspector reviewing the scheme simply thinks that the Specials would be out on duty that Friday/Saturday night regardless, never mind that they're only out for that specific duty because it's something a bit different.

Technically we need to do our minimum on NPT, but Specials aren't suited to it as we don't have the in-depth, day-in-day-out knowledge of areas and people that regulars do. Also, if we book onto a shift and there's a community event on at the same time, we get put onto the community event. Now that sounds reasonable, but my division is large, the 4 stations widly spread apart. I don't have a car. So it's very difficult for me to change station as I'd have to carry all of my PPE on public transport which isn't really good enough in my opinion. If I say I can't work a specific event, it's because I can't. We have so much pressure exerted on us to attend community events and force events, but so many of them are in different divisions, let alone different stations. We get hundreds of dutysheet invitations and people ringing us during office hours. They don't seem to respect that this isn't our primary committment. Having calls, voice messages, text messages and emails isn't the end of the world I know, but getting called during office hours is just silly if you ask me.

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Part of the problem is none of the higher ups respect how this works for us. Case in point, the Chief Super in my force now given 'command' of all Specials was one in '72 or so I think. He's still in the mindset of Specials working school crossings and village fetes but not a whole lot else. As there was no such thing as NPT as such in those days then it is seen that NPT is the natural progression of that type of Policing. Because they did it, we will do it.

Another case in point the POLICE/PARAMEDIC scheme. Two Specials, one from each of two of the three divisions covering my city crewed in a Paramedic responder car. Loved by all Specials who have done the duty, absolutley loved. The Amublance Service love it too. Response love it as they often get stood down if there's anything medical related. However, bosses don't. They believe that it's stealing their extra numbers, because that's what we are to them, numbers. The Chief Inspector reviewing the scheme simply thinks that the Specials would be out on duty that Friday/Saturday night regardless, never mind that they're only out for that specific duty because it's something a bit different.

Technically we need to do our minimum on NPT, but Specials aren't suited to it as we don't have the in-depth, day-in-day-out knowledge of areas and people that regulars do. Also, if we book onto a shift and there's a community event on at the same time, we get put onto the community event. Now that sounds reasonable, but my division is large, the 4 stations widly spread apart. I don't have a car. So it's very difficult for me to change station as I'd have to carry all of my PPE on public transport which isn't really good enough in my opinion. If I say I can't work a specific event, it's because I can't. We have so much pressure exerted on us to attend community events and force events, but so many of them are in different divisions, let alone different stations. We get hundreds of dutysheet invitations and people ringing us during office hours. They don't seem to respect that this isn't our primary committment. Having calls, voice messages, text messages and emails isn't the end of the world I know, but getting called during office hours is just silly if you ask me.

I would tell them that. Email your feelings to all the supervision and say this is why specials leave.

Worst that can happen is they will tell you why it is, best case, they change

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They better not cut the Police/Paramedic shift before I get IP. I've been wanting to do that since October. If you need some more signatures for a letter to the bosses then count me in!

I think we are still lucky (I work the same area as Eoghan). Our SLO is very pro specials, and doesn't care if we do NPT, Response, PCT, just along as we put our hours in. As a result, he is very respected. I hope that the bosses listen to him, but I feel already that bad changes are about to happen to WYP Specials.

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They better not cut the Police/Paramedic shift before I get IP. I've been wanting to do that since October. If you need some more signatures for a letter to the bosses then count me in!

I think we are still lucky (I work the same area as Eoghan). Our SLO is very pro specials, and doesn't care if we do NPT, Response, PCT, just along as we put our hours in. As a result, he is very respected. I hope that the bosses listen to him, but I feel already that bad changes are about to happen to WYP Specials.

1,500 more specials. You don't need to say much more. It's going to ruin our force. I might move back home just because of how royally it'll be messed up here and how horrible it could end up being.

I would tell them that. Email your feelings to all the supervision and say this is why specials leave.

Worst that can happen is they will tell you why it is, best case, they change

Yeah good point. I suppose it could be worth a shot, I have spoken to someone canvassing officers feelings but I get the impression she didn't care about specials and didn't actually write anything down.

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That is nothing but poor management and tasking. Have you raised this with your specials management?

I have emailed the PC in charge of Specials (job title "*Special Operation Name* Coordinator) who got my S/Inspector involved - he sent an email to all Specials in the division stating the following:

with immediate effect ALL working with response teams must be booked at least 24 hours in advance and cleared through your Special Sergeant. Failure to comply with this instruction may result in unsatisfactory performance procedures.

They're hauling anybody who doesn't comply with this in front of the regular section Inspector who offers you an action plan (aka, you are never allowed on response ever) or the door - special supervision here work with smoke and mirrors - informal meetings mean an action plan!

The management from perspective as a SC is awful - imagine going for an informal chat because you don't do an operation and you are put on an action plan even though you average well over 16 hours consistently across 3 years.

We are literally expected to chase kids around all night every single Friday and Saturday - when you question the skills gap because of this pressure is put on you indirectly to become a team payer and your life as a SC is made very difficult.

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They better not cut the Police/Paramedic shift before I get IP. I've been wanting to do that since October. If you need some more signatures for a letter to the bosses then count me in!

I think we are still lucky (I work the same area as Eoghan). Our SLO is very pro specials, and doesn't care if we do NPT, Response, PCT, just along as we put our hours in. As a result, he is very respected. I hope that the bosses listen to him, but I feel already that bad changes are about to happen to WYP Specials.

TheJazzPolice, That's exactly how our entire force usually runs and our specials and regs are inextricably linked re deployment, specials can work with regs any time they want as long as there is a single crewed officer available and it's by pre arrangement with him or her,ours is a big force,(geographically) so when I sit here and read of how town sergeants/inspectors in some areas of the country allow their specials to be deployed in the way Mr DSP describes I am absolutely staggered, mini special operations indeed,and how the particular Superintendant in charge of the special constabulary in his/her area has not picked up on this morale sapping mismanagement of a very valuable resource beggars belief.

Quite clearly your SLO is a very enlightened man and understands the mind set of volunteers and their reasons for turning out.Rich. ps,are you able to say what changes are afoot in WYP specials.

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Part of the problem is none of the higher ups respect how this works for us. Case in point, the Chief Super in my force now given 'command' of all Specials was one in '72 or so I think. He's still in the mindset of Specials working school crossings and village fetes but not a whole lot else. As there was no such thing as NPT as such in those days then it is seen that NPT is the natural progression of that type of Policing. Because they did it, we will do it.

Another case in point the POLICE/PARAMEDIC scheme. Two Specials, one from each of two of the three divisions covering my city crewed in a Paramedic responder car. Loved by all Specials who have done the duty, absolutley loved. The Amublance Service love it too. Response love it as they often get stood down if there's anything medical related. However, bosses don't. They believe that it's stealing their extra numbers, because that's what we are to them, numbers. The Chief Inspector reviewing the scheme simply thinks that the Specials would be out on duty that Friday/Saturday night regardless, never mind that they're only out for that specific duty because it's something a bit different.

Technically we need to do our minimum on NPT, but Specials aren't suited to it as we don't have the in-depth, day-in-day-out knowledge of areas and people that regulars do. Also, if we book onto a shift and there's a community event on at the same time, we get put onto the community event. Now that sounds reasonable, but my division is large, the 4 stations widly spread apart. I don't have a car. So it's very difficult for me to change station as I'd have to carry all of my PPE on public transport which isn't really good enough in my opinion. If I say I can't work a specific event, it's because I can't. We have so much pressure exerted on us to attend community events and force events, but so many of them are in different divisions, let alone different stations. We get hundreds of dutysheet invitations and people ringing us during office hours. They don't seem to respect that this isn't our primary committment. Having calls, voice messages, text messages and emails isn't the end of the world I know, but getting called during office hours is just silly if you ask me.

I find it amazing that we're both SCs but I do a very different job. I'm often single crewed on response and will go to jobs that I'm deployed to, get tasked for scheduled appointments and get statements, get tasked jobs to investigate and interview suspects. I also do festivals which is a nice change in the summer and have been specifically trained for them.

This forum really makes me feel very lucky to be in such a progressive force with good local management as well as on a force level from both the SC and regulars. It's such a shame that all forces can't see and realise the potential of the SC through poor leadership, often at the highest levels.

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I find it amazing that we're both SCs but I do a very different job. I'm often single crewed on response and will go to jobs that I'm deployed to, get tasked for scheduled appointments and get statements, get tasked jobs to investigate and interview suspects. I also do festivals which is a nice change in the summer and have been specifically trained for them.

I wish!

The ironic thing is - in my division it's the Special Supervision stopping this. Regular response Sgt/s are happy for us to double crew or even take out spare marked cars.

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I'm surprised your Division has any Specials left, it's asking for resignations en masse & is not a best use of resources (including the vehicles, derv and wear and tear), needs some high up regulars to kick up a stink!

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I wish!

The ironic thing is - in my division it's the Special Supervision stopping this. Regular response Sgt/s are happy for us to double crew or even take out spare marked cars.

The sad thing is, that doesn't surprise me. Have management ever explained why?

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