george b

i said what?

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as an off shoot of another thread about informed consent, I though I would throw in a scenario to explore the concept.

Sid has been watching the football. Down the pub. There is a double feature, so he has been there from 12 and staggers home at 8 , extremely drunk. Dave ,his son , asks to borrow the car for the evening, Sid mumbles Incoherantly , Dave takes that as a yes and takes off to pick his mates up, sometime later Dave is explaining to a PC at the road side why he is driving his mates round. At 3am in his dads car with no driving licience and insurance and being 16. . He assures the pc he has permission and so hasn't twoced the car. The car is of course towed.

the pcs not taking his word for it pop round to see Sid, who has now sobered up a bit but has a serious hang over, of course if Sid did give consent there is a small matter of permiting driving with no insurance etc to consider.

Sid says he had no memory at all of the conversation, being so drunk, but agrees he might have said yes , not understanding what was being said to him.

so,,, has the car been taken with out consent, was Dave correct to take the word of a very very drunk person as giving him permission.

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1 hour ago, george b said:

as an off shoot of another thread about informed consent, I though I would throw in a scenario to explore the concept.

Sid has been watching the football. Down the pub. There is a double feature, so he has been there from 12 and staggers home at 8 , extremely drunk. Dave ,his son , asks to borrow the car for the evening, Sid mumbles Incoherantly , Dave takes that as a yes and takes off to pick his mates up, sometime later Dave is explaining to a PC at the road side why he is driving his mates round. At 3am in his dads car with no driving licience and insurance and being 16. . He assures the pc he has permission and so hasn't twoced the car. The car is of course towed.

the pcs not taking his word for it pop round to see Sid, who has now sobered up a bit but has a serious hang over, of course if Sid did give consent there is a small matter of permiting driving with no insurance etc to consider.

Sid says he had no memory at all of the conversation, being so drunk, but agrees he might have said yes , not understanding what was being said to him.

so,,, has the car been taken with out consent, was Dave correct to take the word of a very very drunk person as giving him permission.

As far as I'm concerned that's a TWOC. An incoherent mumble is not consent!

Edited by MPotter

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15 minutes ago, MPotter said:

As far as I'm concerned that's a TWOC. An incoherent mumble is not consent!

but it's not a no either, if the wife says I'm talking ng your car, whilst I'm watching the snooker, she gets no response at all , in fact I probably wouldn't even know she was taking to me,, would that be twoc or would I have to say, oh no your not taking mine just coz yours os low on gas

Edited by george b

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This seems to push the boundaries of implied consent too far for it to cover Dave. The fact that Sid is drunk doesn't technically matter (voluntary intoxication and all that), but without being able to string together a sentence he cannot give consent unless it's in a written form.

In terms of your wife taking your car. You will know whether or not she has a licence, is a named driver and the car is all in order so it's a slightly different scenario. Implied consent would also apply to it. Whilst you should know that regarding a son, if you've got 12 pints of goodness in you, I'd guess you wouldn't even think about it. 

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19 minutes ago, Stripe said:

This seems to push the boundaries of implied consent too far for it to cover Dave. The fact that Sid is drunk doesn't technically matter (voluntary intoxication and all that), but without being able to string together a sentence he cannot give consent unless it's in a written form.

In terms of your wife taking your car. You will know whether or not she has a licence, is a named driver and the car is all in order so it's a slightly different scenario. Implied consent would also apply to it. Whilst you should know that regarding a son, if you've got 12 pints of goodness in you, I'd guess you wouldn't even think about it. 

Even then I'd imagine that a written consent wouldn't be valid! If the person taking the vehicle is aware of the owner's drunkenness then they should wait until he is sober before asking.

Edited by MPotter

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1 hour ago, Stripe said:

This seems to push the boundaries of implied consent too far for it to cover Dave. The fact that Sid is drunk doesn't technically matter (voluntary intoxication and all that), but without being able to string together a sentence he cannot give consent unless it's in a written form.

In terms of your wife taking your car. You will know whether or not she has a licence, is a named driver and the car is all in order so it's a slightly different scenario. Implied consent would also apply to it. Whilst you should know that regarding a son, if you've got 12 pints of goodness in you, I'd guess you wouldn't even think about it. 

but if he is that drunk, then would his signature be valid? They won't let you take on hp or donate a kidney, join the army etc if you are intoxicated even if you do sign a form

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I think you are focussing on the wrong part. It's not if the incoherent mumble was a yes or no it's what the driver genuinely believed.

Did he believe that he had received consent to take the vehicle or alternatively did he reasonably believe that the consent would have been given under the circumstances.

If he did believe it then he does not have the pre-requisite mens-rea to commit the offence.

At least that's my understanding of it-Implied consent is not really the issue here.

HMS

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Or alternatively deal with the youth for Drive Otherwise, No Insurance. Put the file together and send to YOT for a decision.
After decision made, then decide if its worth the hassle of looking at a permit matter.
Usually by this time you have another dozen crimes in your workload so you get rid of it.

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Alternatively? You mean let him off for the TWOC and focus on the lesser easy offences- write a ticket and forget it? :/


Sometimes you need to look at the bigger picture and ask the question, "He's 16, will a "technical TWOC" add anything. Will he get anything further from a YOT panel. Not very likely.

Taken as proper TWOC, different story.

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It isn't the bigger picture- it's the smaller one. A recorded twoc conviction would paint the more accurate picture if he reoffends. We down play, then cps downplays in plea bargain, then the following year he steals a car and kills someone because sufficient intervention wasn't made. I don't believe in taking the easy way out and issuing a quick ticket because it's less effort. I'm surprised that it's me from the crime group arguing the seriousness of taking vehicles to a traffic officer. This is a proper TWOC just like a domestic assault is a proper assault.


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30 minutes ago, HMService said:

It isn't the bigger picture- it's the smaller one. A recorded twoc conviction would paint the more accurate picture if he reoffends. We down play, then cps downplays in plea bargain, then the following year he steals a car and kills someone because sufficient intervention wasn't made. I don't believe in taking the easy way out and issuing a quick ticket because it's less effort. I'm surprised that it's me from the crime group arguing the seriousness of taking vehicles to a traffic officer. This is a proper TWOC just like a domestic assault is a proper assault.


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aren't you rather circumnavigating' the issue of if you could get a twoc conviction in the above circumstances

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I've dealt with that very situation so many times it's an eye roll every time I see it. And yes of course you can- if you are willing to go to the trouble.... I wouldn't be much of a Detective if that fell into the too difficult box.


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It isn't the bigger picture- it's the smaller one. A recorded twoc conviction would paint the more accurate picture if he reoffends. We down play, then cps downplays in plea bargain, then the following year he steals a car and kills someone because sufficient intervention wasn't made. I don't believe in taking the easy way out and issuing a quick ticket because it's less effort. I'm surprised that it's me from the crime group arguing the seriousness of taking vehicles to a traffic officer. This is a proper TWOC just like a domestic assault is a proper assault.


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HM. The issue and question is around consent in using a vehicle from a known family member, and knowing the result that will come back from YOT, which will be a juvenile caution, NOT a ticket, as you cant issue tickets to juveniles.

Plus it can't be a proper TWOC when C Consent is the issue.

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I take your point on the juvenile bit- I admit I didn't focus on that; are you saying then you would pursue the twoc on an 18 year old ? The way I was reading it was it was too difficult because of the lack of a cooperative IP..


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