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george b

oyoh give me my bike back

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bit of a tricky one this,

Philip has decided to take early retirement on ill health grounds, and buys himself a narrow boat, with the intention of touring the water ways of gb in the summertime and wintering at his villa in spain

he finds. That the boating life has a few drawbacks, not least is how far he is from a postbox or a shop or a pub and he can't walk far with his bad hip. So he buy himself a Honda monkey bike, at great expense as they are collectable classics' now.

on the day, he sets off on a one mile trip down the canal tow path to buy some provisions

coming the other way is Steve the special constible, there have been numerous complaints about scramblers ripping up and down the towpath and Steve has been sent have a walk round and reassure residents that the police are on it. Though he doesnt expect to catch anyone as they just zoom of when they see him coming.

he can't believe his luck when he see Philip rolling towards him at a sedate 10 miles an hour.

he is stopped and documents checked, all ok, then Steve tells him that as he is in breach of s34 rta, off road riding, he os giving him a s59 notice. Phil is livid and tell Steve he was a senior partner at a firm of solicitors and he has checked the law and has no intention of stopping riding there as its perfectly legal

Steve takes that as am indexation that the S59 won't be compled with seizes the bike .

Phil is now incandesant with rage and tell Steve he will sue the chief. Constible for unlawful seizure, trespass on goods and personal injury caused by him having to walk back to the boat with his bad hip.

so who right, can Phil can ride on a canal tow path or has steve got him bang to rights

Edited by george b

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It depends on who owns it. If it's private property and it's not prohibited then yes. If it's public property then no!

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1 minute ago, MPotter said:

It depends on who owns it. If it's private property and it's not prohibited then yes. If it's public property then no!

but s 34 RTA extends to private propery where the express permission of the owner has not been given, just as it might not apply to "public property". So who owns it isn't the the defining feature.

nb there is no such thing as public property, it belongs to the council. Or the nt or the government non of it belongs to the public

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Just now, george b said:

but s 34 RTA extends to private propery where the express permission of the owner has not been given, just as it might not apply to "public property". So who owns it isn't the the defining feature.

nb there is no such thing as public property, it belongs to the council. Or the nt or the government non of it belongs to the public

Thank you for that, my mistake then. I believe that Steve has got Phil bang to rights unless Steve has reasonable suspicion that Steve does not have express permission from the landowner.

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4 minutes ago, MPotter said:

Thank you for that, my mistake then. I believe that Steve has got Phil bang to rights unless Steve has reasonable suspicion that Steve does not have express permission from the landowner.

its not reasonable suspicion, its reasonable belief , which is a far higher standard, required for a s 59

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Try again.

S34 is made out. He does NOT have permission.

Can I use my motorbike on towpaths?
No you can’t. Byelaw 31 of our General Canal Byelaws states that no person, unless authorised by the Trust, shall drive any vehicle over any towing path. 'Vehicle' is defined as anything on wheels. Therefore, unless we have given permission - as we have done generally in respect of push bikes, wheelchairs and prams - it is an offence under our Byelaws to ride motorbikes on the towpaths. It’s also an offence to park or store a motorbike on towpaths under byelaw 55 which states that no person shall leave or place upon any canal (which includes the towpath) any vehicle so as to cause an obstruction or hindrance or otherwise than in accordance with any reasonable direction of the Trust.

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/about-us/our-campaigns/share-the-space-our-towpath-code/top-tips-for-sharing-the-space/towpath-faqs

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48 minutes ago, Traffic Rat said:

Try again.

S34 is made out. He does NOT have permission.

Can I use my motorbike on towpaths?
No you can’t. Byelaw 31 of our General Canal Byelaws states that no person, unless authorised by the Trust, shall drive any vehicle over any towing path. 'Vehicle' is defined as anything on wheels. Therefore, unless we have given permission - as we have done generally in respect of push bikes, wheelchairs and prams - it is an offence under our Byelaws to ride motorbikes on the towpaths. It’s also an offence to park or store a motorbike on towpaths under byelaw 55 which states that no person shall leave or place upon any canal (which includes the towpath) any vehicle so as to cause an obstruction or hindrance or otherwise than in accordance with any reasonable direction of the Trust.

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/about-us/our-campaigns/share-the-space-our-towpath-code/top-tips-for-sharing-the-space/towpath-faqs

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but a bylaw offence isn't sufficient to issue a s 59, that requires a breach of the rta

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but a bylaw offence isn't sufficient to issue a s 59, that requires a breach of the rta


No but it gives the evidence he doesnt have permission of the landowner so S34 offence is in play.

A lot of people seem to issue S59 warnings at the drop of a hat when half the evidence isn't there.

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1 hour ago, Traffic Rat said:

 


No but it gives the evidence he doesnt have permission of the landowner so S34 offence is in play.

A lot of people seem to issue S59 warnings at the drop of a hat when half the evidence isn't there.

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don't you have to prove its not a road first, what defintion of road are you using that excludes towpaths?

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George, Your question at the end of the post is "can phil ride on a canal tow path or has Steve got him bang to rights"

So my first answer of S34 is in play (defined by the fact he does not have permission to ride on the towpath - bylaw confirms this fact)

The second part was a general comment on the use of S59 generally.

S59 is questionable as whilst S3 or S34 is in play, given the low speed etc, it would be questionable about the second part "is causing, or is likely to cause, alarm, distress or annoyance to members of the public"

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2 hours ago, Traffic Rat said:

George, Your question at the end of the post is "can phil ride on a canal tow path or has Steve got him bang to rights"

So my first answer of S34 is in play (defined by the fact he does not have permission to ride on the towpath - bylaw confirms this fact)

The second part was a general comment on the use of S59 generally.

S59 is questionable as whilst S3 or S34 is in play, given the low speed etc, it would be questionable about the second part "is causing, or is likely to cause, alarm, distress or annoyance to members of the public"

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if you invoking s34 you FIRST have to prove the bike was being used off road. To do that you have to define what a road is and is not. If you cant jump that hurdle then it matters not of he had permission, the s59 sezure in unlawful

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What does "reason to believe" mean? Is it the same as "reasonable belief" or is it simply a constable's own belief?

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43 minutes ago, MPotter said:

What does "reason to believe" mean? Is it the same as "reasonable belief" or is it simply a constable's own belief?

its the same as reasonably belief, in that it matters not what the pc believes only if that belief is reasonable

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