[Get Carter]

Anti-discrimination employment laws should be suspended to redress inequality in senior police ranks, CRE chairman says

Patrick Butler and Saba Salman
Wednesday March 17, 2004
The Guardian

Ministers should suspend anti-discrimination laws to enable police forces in racially diverse areas to fast-track black and ethnic minority recruits at the expense of white candidates, according to the head of the government's race watchdog.
Trevor Phillips, chairman of the Commission for Racial Equality, said that ways had to be found to fast-track ethnic minority staff to senior posts if police were to appear "legitimate" in the eyes of their communities.

In an interview today with Society Guardian Mr Phillips says such measures are needed because of the failure of conventional methods to tackle race inequality, such as colourblind recruitment techniques, anti-racism training, and job advertising in the ethnic minority press.

Mr Phillips rejects suggestions that the approach copies US-style affirmative action. "Affirmative action has become 'let's help black people'; I'm not doing this to help black people; I'm doing it because our public services cannot do the job unless we make progress [in racial equality] at all levels, pretty quickly."

He says he is in discussion with the home secretary, David Blunkett, about the measure, which would - in "extreme" cases - require existing police recruitment procedures, which are based on a strict queuing system, to be halted to allow an influx of ethnic minority officers.

Allowing black and Asian candidates to jump the queue was necessary if forces were to maximise their performance and win the confidence of a racially diverse public, said Mr Phillips. The principle could also be applied to other public services.

He said: "If you are a police force in a city which has 20 or 30% ethnic minorities but you only have one to two per cent ethnic minorities in your workforce, you don't just have an operational problem you have a legitimacy problem."

Mr Phillips criticises police recruitment procedures which he said meant candidates sit numerous tests and wait for the right opportunity to come up. "Unless what happens is 10,000 ethnic recruits turn up on the same day and they all apply at same time you're not going to change things very fast."

The police force in England and Wales this month reached a record 134,000. Increased pay levels mean there have been no shortage of new recruits. This has made it more difficult for police forces to accelerate their ethnic minority recruitment.

Mr Phillips' proposal is influenced by the experience of the US army, which he says realised that a purely white officer cadre would not be able to guarantee troop unity on the battlefield.

"What they needed to have was a mixed officer class so they did whatever it took to achieve that aim."

Mr Phillips said the Commission for Equality and Human Rights, which will be created following the abolition of the CRE, Equal Opportunities Commission and Disability Rights Commission in 2006, should be given the right to apply to ministers to suspend the race and sex discrimination laws in certain circumstances.

Jan Berry, chairman of the Police Federation of England and Wales said that the service had been working hard to recruit more ethnic minority officers, and "steady progress" had been made.

But she warned that positive discrimination could be counter-productive. "All officers, including talented black officers, may feel isolated and consider their efforts and promotion are undermined should newer colleagues be leap-frogged into the service through preferential treatment and recruitment."

Mr Phillips, a television executive who has been chairman of the CRE for just over a year, also reveals that in the interests of fairness he plans later this month to expand the number of white CRE commissioners from two out of 15 to five.

"If I can put it crudely - we are not just the commission advocating for black and brown people," he says.

[blitzpatrol]

The CRE clearly needs to work towards reflecting the diversity of Britain in its workforce. It is 70% ethnic minority when ethnic minorities are around 9.6% of the UK population. I'm sure that in time they will have to "suspend" anti discrimination laws in order to reach representativity, because right now I think they have a problem with credibility.

OK sarcasm over, despite the fact its true.

I think its what we've come to expect from the CRE who NEED to identify problems in order to get funding and justify their existance.

As for suspending anti discrimination laws, well, we always knew those laws weren't there to protect white people really anyway?

I don't think it'll happen but if it does then it will be a blow to meritocracy and a win for the bean-counters who probably spend all weekend matching up jelly babies to make sure there are correct numbers of colours represented!

[Spartacus]

It isn't a bad idea upon reflection.. there is a need to get people from ethnic minorities into the police.. BUT.. more importantly.. keep them there. There is a high turn over rate for ethnic officers.. apparaently this is due to supervisors being scared to informally discipline recruits.. these are passed upwards through formal channels leading to issues.

Of the CRE i'm very worried about.. a recent NAO describe it as inefficient, ridden with political infighting and very elitest.

[DKNwhy]

This is simply wrong! I totally agree with the anti-discrimination laws... and it seems MAD that the CRE should suggest discriminating against white officers.

I know that the police force must represent the public that we police... however I don't see how fast tracking people simply based on their colour will help anyone. They won't be accepted/intergrated because people will know that they are quite possibly not the best person for the job, and that they only got to their position due to the colour of their skin.

If this were to happen it would be a bad thing for the officers, the force and the public as a whole.

[Spartacus]

Personally... if they said.. only ethnic minorities should be able to join for the next five years.. I'd accept that. Even though that would exclude me. Something has to be done to get this issue out in the open and dealt with. Perhaps we'd be able to get on with policing.. you know.. cops and robbers stuff...

[type2]

Chris, I am total agreement with you.

I think its absurd that they should "fast track" officers due to creed and colour.

Yes I agree that there should be more ethnic minority officers, and that they should hold senior ranks, but this should only happen on merit. NOT because of skin colour or any form of favouritism.

Furthermore it is racism. Only difference is that white officers are now being discriminated against.

[DKNwhy]

It really wouldn't work.. if you watched the Secret Policeman.. you will remember how annoyed people where that the asian recruit had been 'fast tracked', and that he had been engouraged to join by a Chf Insp... that was even the non-racists!

I totally agree that we need more minority officers, not only ethnic minority officers. However I can't see an overtly unfair system being accepted, the fast-tracked individuals would encounter a barrier in my opinion, because they would be seen as having gotten unfair treatment.

[type2]

Indeed...

Surely we need "equality" which means treating everyone the same?

[Bubba]

type2, on Mar 18 2004, 11:43 PM, said:

Indeed...

Surely we need "equality" which means treating everyone the same?

No thats not what it means. You simply can't treat everyone the same, you need to treat everyone equal to their needs.

[Teleologica]

Bert, on Mar 18 2004, 11:36 PM, said:

Personally... if they said.. only ethnic minorities should be able to join for the next five years.. I'd accept that. Even though that would exclude me. Something has to be done to get this issue out in the open and dealt with. Perhaps we'd be able to get on with policing.. you know.. cops and robbers stuff...

It might be acceptable to you bert, but i am a bit old fashioned i think racial discrimination is wrong (i know this isn't the latest thinking on such matters mind you). Your last line makes a good point. Almost everywhere public services tie themselves up in knots over trying not to be perceived to be racist/homophobic etc and the actual service they are intended to provide can sadly come somewhere down the line of priorities.

[Teleologica]

Neil M, on Mar 19 2004, 12:06 AM, said:

No thats not what it means.  You simply can't treat everyone the same, you need to treat everyone equal to their needs.

You are have the current PC thinking there Neil. Sadly like all PC thinking it has a particular agenda and is not really interested in equality. If it were then, for instance, poor recruits say from any background might have any out-of- pocket expenses incurred during the recruitment process reimbursed.

This post has been edited by ndw78: 19 March 2004 - 12:33 AM

[DKNwhy]

PC thinking or not.. it is wrong! I understand the idea, BUT it can't work, everyone would come out worse off in my opinion.

[blitzpatrol]

If deliberately disadvantaging whites is the next lunacy we have to put up with for the sake of "good relations" then perhaps its time we stopped becoming a more diverse society and restricted our borders a little more. I've always believed in welcoming people and treating people as individuals but this business the CRE keeps putting forward is getting into the realms of dictating to us and taking liberties and making us second class citizens in our own country.

They talk of treating people as who they are not their ethnicity or religion, then go and do the opposite when it suits them. The say that race doesn't matter then say quite forthright things about the US army not being able to keep their soldiers united unless the right faces were represented in certain ranks. They should make up their minds. If it matters then maybe it IS time we took a step back and asked ourselves how far down this path do we want to go? And what kind of future is there in store if we keep down this path.

On the other hand if it doesn't matter, which is what they usually tell us, then why the obsession for quotas and affirmative action and social engineering. Maybe we should just bin the dogma?

Being against racism is one thing (and I'd hope most of us here are), but I get the impression things are starting to get silly.

[DKNwhy]

Spot on blitzpatrol!

[Get Carter]

If I remember correctly, in the Secret Policeman documentary, there was Asian recruit who had been fast-tracked into the service in 3 weeks, from application to training. The rest of the class had to endure the usual 6-18 month process. On the recruit course that got a lot of people's backs up. Granted a number of em were racist morons in the first instance, however, in my opinion, this kind of 'positive discrimination' only serves to breed resentment.

If I have to wait 6-18 months to get into the police, and I'm no more/less capable of doing the job than any other recruit, regardless of colour or background, how can it be considered equality when those whose colour/background differ from mine are given a start 3 weeks after sending off the form based purely on said differing race/background?

This post has been edited by DannyBoy: 19 March 2004 - 12:44 AM

[MJP]

There will be more officers from ethic minority groups in higher ranks IN TIME... it takes a while to rise through the ranks... and there shouldn't be artificial boosts to the numbers.

Affirmatative action policies in recruitment and promotion are morally (and SHOULD be legally ) indefensible.

You either operate equal status for all, with application and promotion based on competance and merit or you dont operate at all.

Promoting someone that isnt of the right calibre just to satify some marxist gangsters that have infected all levels of government and civil service is in my opinion utter lunacy.

By all means have safe guards in place to make sure application vetting, interviews and on the job promotion IS fair and based only on apptitude, experience and merit. No one would argue against this. Go beyond that, and I have nothing but contempt for it.

[DKNwhy]

I totally agree...

What next? Easier applications? Less damanding physical? etc etc...


Where would it end? Double standards are not fair. Simple.

[jb]

chris_2003, on Mar 18 2004, 11:40 PM, said:

It really wouldn't work

You're too bloody right it wouldn't work. Just think of the media out cry now. I can see the tabaloid headlines in my head. "The Police - No longer black and white" (ok, I'm not headline writer) but you get the drift.
No wonder parties like the BNP are gaining footholds in certain areas. I mean come on. Lets get real people. Positive discrimination is just as wrong as negative!

I'm sure the £20 billion Gordon is saving us over the coming years would have to be ploughed in the CRE to generate reports and focus groups to discuss the issues. GOD! I wish some people in this country would get a grip. Does this mean a curb on all applications to all jobs from white people. After all, I'm sure there is some misrepresentation in Parliament. What do we do? Create a law which prevents political parties from accepting membership applications from white people?

I mean, I'm sorry this is a rant. I have done so much work in the past on the holocaust. On making people scapegoats. On racism and hatred.
I just don't understand this world. We know there are problems, we know we're not perfect, but don't make white people undervalued subjects in the name of equality.

J

[Teleologica]

MJP, on Mar 19 2004, 12:43 AM, said:

There will be more officers from ethic minority groups in higher ranks IN TIME... it takes a while to rise through the ranks... and there shouldn't be artificial boosts to the numbers.

This is quite right.

People always make the mistake of comparison with the USA. They emphasise how many high ranking public officials in the US are black etc and how few there are here.

It is a poor comparison , firstly, as perhaps 1 in 40 people in the UK is black, whereas it's more like 1 in 7 in the US. Secondly, there has only been substantial numbers of black people in the UK for perhaps 40 years or so, whereas in the US it is over 150 years.

It IS happening, things will change , people ARE coming through. I think thsi is a good thing but I want it all on merit like any decent person would.

For what it's worth I am quite convinced this is the least racist country which has experienced any level of immigration in modern times. I think this is born out by our tone of public debate and things like our rates of ethnic intermarrying. When people bang on about racism in this country I have to wonder if they have any idea about what goes in other nations. Can anyone possibly imagine something like the French headscarf ban happening in the UK in today's climate? Have they seen the abject polarisation of US society along racial lines?


Long live GENUINE equality.

[JG2]

I think that things are changing steadily (for the better) over time. I also believe that the most solid and widely accepted changes are those that happen slowly and in their own time.

Sexual discrimination still exists today, but we're in a much better position than 50 years ago. Most people accept that women should be paid the same wage as a man for doing the same job. And that's my point. Forcing change so quickly and radically will lead to a lack of acceptance, as previously discussed.

Getting a proportionate reflection of minority ethnic communities in the police service (or anywhere else for that matter) will work best when it is accepted and completely "ordinary" - that is, nobody knows any different.

It might well be unfair that ethnic minorities have to wait another 10 or 20 years for the situation to resolve, but if it is to be resolved effectively, thoroughly and in a stable manner then it will take time. It just isn't possible to make a sweeping change without other negative consequences taking the place of the current ones.

People will soon leave the service if nobody respects them because they were artificially pushed up through the ranks. And who would that help? It would be fantastic if we could simply make a change and achieve accepted and genuine racial equality overnight, but it just isn't possible.

This post has been edited by JG2: 19 March 2004 - 09:42 AM

[David]

This can all be summed up in one sentence.

How can this not be racist?

Or is it really the case after all, as many have suspected for years, that it's only blacks (or any other ethnic minority) can be discriminated against?

[Gforceuk]

* removed *

This post has been edited by Gforceuk: 07 April 2004 - 06:23 PM

[Sidious]

I agree with the majority of sentiments already expressed in the thread.

It can't be right to start "positive discrimination" for any circumstances. Forces could pehaps actively recruit in a specific area, where a high number of the "target" recruits may come from, to get more minority ethnic applications in the system, like for instance, advertising in a newspaper aimed at a particular section of the community - This was what happened a few years ago when GMP ran advertisments in newspapers aimed at the Gay community - this isn't discrimination. But to put a hold on recruiting officers who are not in a minority just to raise numbers is absolutely wrong and it will open the service and individuals up to criticism - especially if it transpires that someone is not up to doing the job.

[QA]

Equality should mean equality.

Nobody should have an advantage because of their race, sex, religion etc. Of course, nobody should have a disadvantage either.

It's a bit ironic that the head of the Racial Equality Commision, who have faught for equal ops so much, now want to abandon that legislation when it suits them...