[hcps]

Dear users, I have a question.

I have a dedicated fire response vehicle which has blue lights and sirens ETC, I want to remove the blue lights and just preserve the taxation class, but once I have done this can I still skip red lights without the aid of a blue light? Your help would be helpful

[Hades]

Do you work for a 'fire brigade'?

[cfnbryn]

I would assume, that you are not a member of the emergency services if you are planning on modifying your vehicle.
Why would you want to skip red lights? let alone with or without the use of a blue light.

[D-J]

D-J

This post has been edited by D-J: 01 August 2010 - 10:39 PM

[Viper]

You do not need to have the warning equipment on to claim exemptions.

[Damsel]

hcps, on 31 July 2010 - 12:05 AM, said:

Dear users, I have a question.

I have a dedicated fire response vehicle which has blue lights and sirens ETC, I want to remove the blue lights and just preserve the taxation class, but once I have done this can I still skip red lights without the aid of a blue light? Your help would be helpful

Define "fire response". Do you mean a fire appliance, or a car/van another type of vehicle?

Though technically, if the vehicle is a fire engine, or vehicle used for fire brigade or fire salvage purposes, and I would imagine registered in the "FIRE" taxation class, you can claim certain exemptions from the Road Traffic Act, however, and I cannot stress this enough...

DO NOT TRY TO GO THROUGH RED TRAFFIC LIGHTS WITHOUT ALL OF THE EMERGENCY WARNING EQUIPMENT THAT YOU CAN LAY YOUR HANDS ON ACTIVATED

To try and do otherwise would be complete and utter madness! It's bad enough in a fully marked emergency vehicle with more blue lights that you can shake a stick at, some motorists still don't see (or hear) you. To try and pull the same trick with only a marked vehicle, without blue lights would be almost suicidal, or worse if you happened to kill an innocent motorist.

Though you can claim the exemptions without the emergency equipment activated, you'd be bonkers to try it through red ATS.


And anyway, why on earth would you want to remove the blue lights from an operational fire vehicle? That's just plain daft, to put it bluntly.

[brand b]

hcps, on 31 July 2010 - 12:05 AM, said:

I have a dedicated fire response vehicle which has blue lights and sirens ETC, I want to remove the blue lights and just preserve the taxation class, but once I have done this can I still skip red lights without the aid of a blue light? Your help would be helpful

"WHY" comes to mind on so many different levels.
WHy remove safety equipment (blue lamps)
WHY change the taxation class becasue of change of equipment
Why 'skip' red lights
Why not use safety equipment to negotiate red ATS
Why not ask your fleet manager first?

This post has been edited by brand b: 31 July 2010 - 07:43 AM

[Burnsy2023]

Isn't this the guy from Atraks?

[2Stroke]

Burnsy2023, on 31 July 2010 - 12:11 PM, said:

Isn't this the guy from Atraks?

Interesting if it is, they will even put your chip pan out for you now!

[Viper]

Addition to my post above, if you have a collision, apart from the Police, other agencies would be interested and investigate such as HSE... You may have to explain why you do not have warning equipment on your emergency vehicle if the vehicle proposed to be an emergency vehicle which you claim exemptions.

How's tricks down Attrax way.. Have you guys now registered your vehicles as fire vehicles?

2Stroke, on 31 July 2010 - 12:29 PM, said:

Interesting if it is, they will even put your chip pan out for you now!

hahahahahahahahaa

Business is business my friend.. If there is a demand there is a supply

brand b, on 31 July 2010 - 08:43 AM, said:

"WHY" comes to mind on so many different levels.
WHy remove safety equipment (blue lamps)
WHY change the taxation class becasue of change of equipment
Why 'skip' red lights
Why not use safety equipment to negotiate red ATS
Why not ask your fleet manager first?

Fleet manager ? What's one of them?

[ninetyone]

No.

[jonnym]

When at reading fest I saw the private fire people going about half a mile down on of the main roads on blues...and then into the festival site. They probably shouldn't have done that. If I see people who shouldn't using blue lights I will deal with them.

[Andrew IOM]

jonnym, on 31 July 2010 - 02:24 PM, said:

When at reading fest I saw the private fire people going about half a mile down on of the main roads on blues...and then into the festival site. They probably shouldn't have done that.

How do you know they weren't responding to a fire/incident on the festival site and it was easier/quicker to go across the sites on public roads? As long as the vehicle is being used for "fire purposes" then there is no problem. Doesn't matter is they are "statutory" or "private" fire services.

[hcps]

Damsel, on 31 July 2010 - 02:15 AM, said:

Define "fire response". Do you mean a fire appliance, or a car/van another type of vehicle?

Though technically, if the vehicle is a fire engine, or vehicle used for fire brigade or fire salvage purposes, and I would imagine registered in the "FIRE" taxation class, you can claim certain exemptions from the Road Traffic Act, however, and I cannot stress this enough...

DO NOT TRY TO GO THROUGH RED TRAFFIC LIGHTS WITHOUT ALL OF THE EMERGENCY WARNING EQUIPMENT THAT YOU CAN LAY YOUR HANDS ON ACTIVATED

To try and do otherwise would be complete and utter madness! It's bad enough in a fully marked emergency vehicle with more blue lights that you can shake a stick at, some motorists still don't see (or hear) you. To try and pull the same trick with only a marked vehicle, without blue lights would be almost suicidal, or worse if you happened to kill an innocent motorist.

Though you can claim the exemptions without the emergency equipment activated, you'd be bonkers to try it through red ATS.


And anyway, why on earth would you want to remove the blue lights from an operational fire vehicle? That's just plain daft, to put it bluntly.

Hi thanks for all your imput, I have changed the taxation class to fire, I am too trained in fire evac and have the vehicle equipped with a hi pressure water appliance, also I am trained in emergency managment by NHS appoved trainers.

The purpose of the vehicle is to respond to all types of emergencies within a specific time frame.

The reason I want to remove the blue lights is to reduce confusion that may be caused by this vehicle, it is a vw passatt ex police dog handler unit, however the colour schemes differ from the local force where I live.

I am currently awaiting a dispesation under section 44 of the road traffic act to enable for a red and amber light combo for emergency response.

Normally I dont need to run traffic lights, however in some cases it has been required.

Thanks for your response

Viper, on 31 July 2010 - 12:55 PM, said:

Addition to my post above, if you have a collision, apart from the Police, other agencies would be interested and investigate such as HSE... You may have to explain why you do not have warning equipment on your emergency vehicle if the vehicle proposed to be an emergency vehicle which you claim exemptions.

How's tricks down Attrax way.. Have you guys now registered your vehicles as fire vehicles?



hahahahahahahahaa

Business is business my friend.. If there is a demand there is a supply





Fleet manager ? What's one of them?

Thanks Atraks has proved there is a demand for a private response service, my company has down scaled since last year but the interest has never been better. We have changed vehicles taxation class to fire so we can offer a more reliable service, I am blue light trained amongst other stuff.

[hcps]

Hades, on 31 July 2010 - 12:29 AM, said:

Do you work for a 'fire brigade'?

Hi no, have a private fire response to respond within a specific time frame for members only, I am trained in fire attack and evac, not to mention fire fighting appliances.

[Andrew IOM]

If you went through a red light, then you would need to prove that you were using the vehicle for "Fire, Police or Ambulance purposes". The statutory services have command and control systems which are fully logged with appropriate times etc that can be used as evidence to back up the reason for the excemption.

As someone else has already stated, there is no legal requirement to have Blues and Twos on to go through a Red Light (treating it as a give way), if you were to have an accident then I would very much suggest it would be your fault and you would be the one prosecuted for the RTC (due care or dangerous driving) but if you can prove the excemption you may get off the red light charge.

Whilst the law may allow it, I very much doubt you would find a statutory Police, Fire or Ambulance service in the UK that would support a member of it's staff if they crashed going through a red light without at least blue lights on - let alone siren as well.

As a company, I would hope that you will be seeking proper legal advice - and not relying on showing a court a printout of this thread when stood in the dock.

[hcps]

Andrew IOM, on 31 July 2010 - 07:44 PM, said:

If you went through a red light, then you would need to prove that you were using the vehicle for "Fire, Police or Ambulance purposes". The statutory services have command and control systems which are fully logged with appropriate times etc that can be used as evidence to back up the reason for the excemption.

As someone else has already stated, there is no legal requirement to have Blues and Twos on to go through a Red Light (treating it as a give way), if you were to have an accident then I would very much suggest it would be your fault and you would be the one prosecuted for the RTC (due care or dangerous driving) but if you can prove the excemption you may get off the red light charge.

Whilst the law may allow it, I very much doubt you would find a statutory Police, Fire or Ambulance service in the UK that would support a member of it's staff if they crashed going through a red light without at least blue lights on - let alone siren as well.

As a company, I would hope that you will be seeking proper legal advice - and not relying on showing a court a printout of this thread when stood in the dock.

LOL, of course not, our legal team have confirmed most of what we needed to know however i was more seeking the views of some police staff, its quiet a complexed set of laws and i was hoping to cover all angles with some views of a traffic officer, just need to await the dispensation section 44 rta then I will consider the rest.

Do you guys know about www.metprogroup.co.uk ? Again your views are much Appreciated

This post has been edited by hcps: 31 July 2010 - 06:51 PM

[Winkworth]

hcps, on 31 July 2010 - 07:16 PM, said:

The reason I want to remove the blue lights is to reduce confusion that may be caused by this vehicle, it is a vw passatt ex police dog handler unit, however the colour schemes differ from the local force where I live.
Thanks for your response

If you don't want to have an overt blue light bar, which I presume is what you have fitted, why not have an LED ligtbar with a clear lens, which would not give an indication of being blue until it has to be switched on.

For example, Redtronic's all clear LED lightbar, 3000 series or 5000 series (double stack lightbar as shown).

This post has been edited by Winkworth: 31 July 2010 - 06:59 PM

[Andrew IOM]

hcps, on 31 July 2010 - 07:37 PM, said:

Hi no, have a private fire response to respond within a specific time frame for members only, I am trained in fire attack and evac, not to mention fire fighting appliances.

It comes down to if you can justify the using the vehicle for "fire purposes" part of the law. I guess that this would include being properly trained to fight fires (or reports of fires that you are responding to), have the necessary equipment to deal with the fire (I doubt carrying a few fire extinguishers would count), and probably have the support of the Statutory Fire Service that covers the area you are working in.

What is the reason/need for your "Fire" service. Are the statutory service not good enough? Any incident that you are called to I would guess that the person's involved would be calling 999 and getting the statutory Fire Service on their way before then thinking about calling you. I think that you would have a hard time in court trying to get off a red light charge if there was no record of the statutory Fire Service being called to the job also....

[Hyde]

hcps, on 31 July 2010 - 07:49 PM, said:

LOL, of course not, our legal team have confirmed most of what we needed to know however i was more seeking the views of some police staff, its quiet a complexed set of laws and i was hoping to cover all angles with some views of a traffic officer, just need to await the dispensation section 44 rta then I will consider the rest.

Do you guys know about www.metprogroup.co.uk ? Again your views are much Appreciated

We've already seen them and discussed about how Poserish they looked, stood with stab vests next to a 'patrol' car.

[hcps]

Winkworth, on 31 July 2010 - 07:51 PM, said:

If you don't want to have an overt blue light bar, which I presume is what you have fitted, why not have an LED ligtbar with a clear lens, which would not give an indication of being blue until it has to be switched on.

For example, Redtronic's all clear LED lightbar, 3000 series or 5000 series (double stack lightbar as shown).

top man

[Hyde]

"They say that they can get there in 2-3 minutes, I triggered my alarm and waited. It took 50 seconds for them to arrive!"
pfff, time wasters. Sounds more like a forced testimony to me, though.

[hcps]

Andrew IOM, on 31 July 2010 - 07:52 PM, said:

It comes down to if you can justify the using the vehicle for "fire purposes" part of the law. I guess that this would include being properly trained to fight fires (or reports of fires that you are responding to), have the necessary equipment to deal with the fire (I doubt carrying a few fire extinguishers would count), and probably have the support of the Statutory Fire Service that covers the area you are working in.

What is the reason/need for your "Fire" service. Are the statutory service not good enough? Any incident that you are called to I would guess that the person's involved would be calling 999 and getting the statutory Fire Service on their way before then thinking about calling you. I think that you would have a hard time in court trying to get off a red light charge if there was no record of the statutory Fire Service being called to the job also....

The fire service are doing a fine job, we have specalist alarms installed into residents homes which detect smoke and record data, we always advice customers to call 999, however we are contracted to respond as a first response.

We do not have the support of our local fire department but that doesnt seem to pose a problem from a legal point of view,

[Andrew IOM]

hcps, on 31 July 2010 - 07:49 PM, said:

LOL, of course not, our legal team have confirmed most of what we needed to know however i was more seeking the views of some police staff, its quiet a complexed set of laws and i was hoping to cover all angles with some views of a traffic officer, just need to await the dispensation section 44 rta then I will consider the rest.

Do you guys know about www.metprogroup.co.uk ? Again your views are much Appreciated

There have been many discussions about MetPro.
http://www.policespe...showtopic=63774
One of their guys came on the forum and confirmed that they don't use the Red lights on the public roads, and don't claim any exemptions under the RTA.

You said that you are wanting a dispensation under Sec 44 RTA to use Red/Amber warning lights. Under what circumstances would you be wanting to use them on public roads? If I was driving down a road and saw a vehicle with red/orange flashing lights then I wouldn't be pulling over to let them past and certainly wouldn't be expecting them to go through a red light. I can't see the reason for needing them???

If you are using the vehicle for "Fire Purposes" and feel that you can justify the purpose then you can have Blue lights and a siren. You wouldn't however be permitted to use them or claim any excemptions for say responding to a burglar alarm going off.

[hcps]

Hyde, on 31 July 2010 - 08:00 PM, said:

"They say that they can get there in 2-3 minutes, I triggered my alarm and waited. It took 50 seconds for them to arrive!"
pfff, time wasters. Sounds more like a forced testimony to me, though.

Agreed, I did apply for some information on them to barnet police, but they seemed very reluctant to reply

But they also show that there is a market for private service, training is key though, we where looking at PNIA but I heared they may be abolished?