91 replies to this topic

[funkywingnut]

Utter tosh, what is your legal training exactly? Telling them verbally I am police officer is enough, if I am not in uniform I must show my warrant card once it is safe and practical to do so.


How do you know what I wear on duty?? Don't presume.

At no point did I say it wouldn't stand up in court im simpily saying why would you not wear it, if you have had cause to take your baton/cuffs home surely you would have your vest, as part of your PPE. You may be in a force that doesn't issue them but I doubt it. If your wearing your belt kit normally your wearing your vest, that may just be me also?

I am a serving Policeman.

[CmdKeen]

To be fair it is usually a good idea to presume a stab vest on duty - now we have the black wicked tops in Fife a stab vest is mandatory* when out and about.

*Mandatory except for those with back injuries or alternatively senior officers (because they are magically bullet proof don't you know)

[Lucozade]

If your wearing your belt kit normally your wearing your vest, that may just be me also?

What if I wear a covert harness? Or wear a suit and don't carry any PPE?

I am a serving Policeman.

You aren't, you're a Service Policeman. You don't hold the office of constable.

[funkywingnut]

What if I wear a covert harness? Or wear a suit and don't carry any PPE?


You aren't, you're a Service Policeman. You don't hold the office of constable.

So I am still trained as a Policeman, I never made the distinction, you will find the training we do is very similar.

Ok I concede that not every single person will wear a vest 24/7 but is it not reasonable to presume uou would have it to hand if you are carrying baton/cuffs?

[nic29]

[quote name='funkywingnut' date='Jan 13 2010, 11:22 PM' post='1759568']
So I am still trained as a Policeman, I never made the distinction, you will find the training we do is very similar.


Please elaborate? Whats is a service policeman?

Why on earth would you feel the need to take any ppe home with you unless you were working from a different office the following day?

Unless you are power hungry and want to play rent-a-cop off duty.

[funkywingnut]

Please elaborate? Whats is a service policeman?

Why on earth would you feel the need to take any ppe home with you unless you were working from a different office the following day?

Unless you are power hungry and want to play rent-a-cop off duty.

Military Police, Service Police is the newish PC term for all 3 Services.

I take mine home for no other reason than I don't have a locker and coppers are the worst group for 'relocating' items, (already lost a jacket this week)

[CmdKeen]

Service police are the armed forces police.

Fair point on the plain clothes thing. Still, if I had a baton and stab vest in my flat and felt the need to take the baton outside the stabbie would be coming with too.

[nic29]

Why involve yourself in that respect off duty though, you will just end up getting hurt,

fair enough , kit does sometimes go walkies but cmon, off duty is off duty.

Quick question, outwith a military base, what powers does a military policeman hold, giving the differencies an law etc?,

excuse my ignorance but you still dont hold the office of constable so where does that leave you?

[CmdKeen]

Because I'd do a dynamic risk assessment rather than charge down the street baton drawn screaming "Freedom"!

Yes off duty is different from on duty, but I'm not a member of the off duty = no duty brigade. Getting involved in duty has plenty of risks at time, its about mitigating them and deciding when it is appropriate to act.

[funkywingnut]

Why involve yourself in that respect off duty though, you will just end up getting hurt,

fair enough , kit does sometimes go walkies but cmon, off duty is off duty.

I agree and if no one is going to get hurt or serious damage caused (exc RTC etc) I try not to get involved. On the odd occasion there is a need but no back up and minimal kit has to be taken into consideration. Anyway I dont get paid overtime so im not that keen to give up my own time

If im dealing with a service person then I will use Military powers of arrest. If I had occasion (and I have), to arrest a civillian then I would be using 'any person powers' so to speak, PACE, BoP ect, once arrested using said powers if the civillian then commits an offence he can be charged under military law.. I have lawful authority and Home Office training so I do carry batons & cuffs.

Edited by funkywingnut, 13 January 2010 - 11:49 PM.

[nic29]

I agree and if no one is going to get hurt or serious damage caused (exc RTC etc) I try not to get involved. On the odd occasion there is a need but no back up and minimal kit has to be taken into consideration. Anyway I dont get paid overtime so im not that keen to give up my own time

So what differencies are their in the powers you have? , im intrigued now!

[MerseyLLB]

Service Police have LA/RE to carry a baton. Armed forces also are never off duty.

On another note, apart from the "call it in. Policy says" blah blah....

The fact is your friend is being attacked and is in fear of their safety and you propose to do nothing even though you DO have a baton and vest (negating the 'no ppe' brigades argument) AND police are on their way.

Don't fancy being any of your mates....

[funkywingnut]

Because I'd do a dynamic risk assessment rather than charge down the street baton drawn screaming "Freedom"!

Yes off duty is different from on duty, but I'm not a member of the off duty = no duty brigade. Getting involved in duty has plenty of risks at time, its about mitigating them and deciding when it is appropriate to act.

Agreed

[Lucozade]

even though you DO have a baton

Jealous?

[funkywingnut]

Service Police have LA/RE to carry a baton. Armed forces also are never off duty.

On another note, apart from the "call it in. Policy says" blah blah....

The fact is your friend is being attacked and is in fear of their safety and you propose to do nothing even though you DO have a baton and vest (negating the 'no ppe' brigades argument) AND police are on their way.

Don't fancy being any of your mates....

If that was the case then yes you would act and put yourself into what could be a dangerous situation, as we so often do.

So what differencies are their in the powers you have? , im intrigued now!

In essence HO force police the civillians, Military Police police the Military (inc Civilians if outside the UK, and also are sworn in as Constables in the falklands)

[MerseyLLB]

Jealous?

No, I can handle myself quite well with my 16 stone thankyou. I get involved with no powers and no ppe off duty...when it is the right thing to do (legally and morally)
It's a shame more people aren't the same...

[nic29]

The fact is your friend is being attacked and is in fear of their safety and you propose to do nothing even though you DO have a baton and vest (negating the 'no ppe' brigades argument) AND police are on their way.

Don't fancy being any of your mates....
[/quote]


So what are you then, somebodys mate or an off duty cop?

I just cant get my head round the fact that you would even let it cross your mind , heading home and getting your gear , sticking it on and jumping back out, i for one wouldnt appreciate turning up at a call like that and being fed all the info on what you had already dealt with, would you be submitting the case given the fact that you had clearly put yourself back onto duty?

Dont think it would go down too well.

[MerseyLLB]

The fact is your friend is being attacked and is in fear of their safety and you propose to do nothing even though you DO have a baton and vest (negating the 'no ppe' brigades argument) AND police are on their way.

Don't fancy being any of your mates....



So what are you then, somebodys mate or an off duty cop?

I just cant get my head round the fact that you would even let it cross your mind , heading home and getting your gear , sticking it on and jumping back out, i for one wouldnt appreciate turning up at a call like that and being fed all the info on what you had already dealt with, would you be submitting the case given the fact that you had clearly put yourself back onto duty?

Dont think it would go down too well.

My point is YOUR FRIEND IS IN DANGER! And you are questioning the logistics of the arrest and the file. You would take any action necessary and if not in your force area give an mg11. In your force area I imagine you will still be giving an mg11 as you are friends with the person. Yes I can see its messy because of the nature of your relationship with the victim, but would I be able to live with myself if my friend is beaten/wounded/killed and I held back because of administrative awkwardness...no!

[LMTS]

I have my full kit at home (including Asp, Cuffs and stab vest)

If this situation happend to me.. id tell them to lock themselfs in the bathroom untill the Police arrive.. and probably call it in myself..

i certainly wouldnt be gearing up to go and engage this so called baddie!

[nic29]

My point is YOUR FRIEND IS IN DANGER! And you are questioning the logistics of the arrest and the file. You would take any action necessary and if not in your force area give an mg11. In your force area I imagine you will still be giving an mg11 as you are friends with the person. Yes I can see its messy because of the nature of your relationship with the victim, but would I be able to live with myself if my friend is beaten/wounded/killed and I held back because of administrative awkwardness...no!

If my friend was in that much danger im sure he would appreciate me getting there asap and getting him away from the situation sharpish , not just to be his Backup , backup thats always a phone call away. Theres a major conflict of interests here, im not saying that if somebody, anybody is in danger not to step in, i know i would, i wouldnt however get kitted up , especially when i have no power to do so.

the question was , is it an offence to carry a baton in Scotland without lawfull authority or reasonable excuse? the predicament doesnt cover either so the answer was Yes, it IS an offence, anything else is irrelevant, EVEN IF YOU POLICE THE MILITARY AND THE PUBLIC . . . . . . ABROAD.

I have my full kit at home (including Asp, Cuffs and stab vest)

If this situation happend to me.. id tell them to lock themselfs in the bathroom untill the Police arrive.. and probably call it in myself..

i certainly wouldnt be gearing up to go and engage this so called baddie!

Some clever person using their brain here!

[MerseyLLB]

I have my full kit at home (including Asp, Cuffs and stab vest)

If this situation happend to me.. id tell them to lock themselfs in the bathroom untill the Police arrive.. and probably call it in myself..

i certainly wouldnt be gearing up to go and engage this so called baddie!

Really, you'd not help your friend in a moment of need?

If my friend was in that much danger im sure he would appreciate me getting there asap and getting him away from the situation sharpish , not just to be his Backup , backup thats always a phone call away. Theres a major conflict of interests here, im not saying that if somebody, anybody is in danger not to step in, i know i would, i wouldnt however get kitted up , especially when i have no power to do so.

the question was , is it an offence to carry a baton in Scotland without lawfull authority or reasonable excuse? the predicament doesnt cover either so the answer was Yes, it IS an offence, anything else is irrelevant, EVEN IF YOU POLICE THE MILITARY AND THE PUBLIC . . . . . . ABROAD.






Some clever person using their brain here!

I agree if you feel better just hot footing it to your friend without tryig to dress as the sherrif of britain then thats fine.

[Paradox]

It's essentially the equivalent of listening into your radio at home and then kitting up everytime something happened nearby. You just don't do it.

[nic29]

Really, you'd not help your friend in a moment of need?



I agree if you feel better just hot footing it to your friend without tryig to dress as the sherrif of britain then thats fine.

Id definetly help him out, as a mate, iv not always been a cop, i aint gonna do something that risks my job and livliehood though, thats just daft.

[funkywingnut]

How about just wandering down to the house shouting "Police" and hoping they ###### off, im sure most would. Job done no one has to scrap and no issue about carrying a baton off duty.

[nic29]

It's essentially the equivalent of listening into your radio at home and then kitting up everytime something happened nearby. You just don't do it.