91 replies to this topic

[Paradox]

Did anyone pick up on this comment on that website?

"Guaranteed delivery to all UK addresses or money back. No customs between Ireland and UK."

Does that sound dodgy to anyone else or is it just me?

[SkinSte]

Everyone on here is a comedian. No i read it in a newspaper about 2 or 3 weeks ago. and it was nothing to do with a police officer hitting someone with it. He had it in his jacket.

What i would like to know is, who knew he had a baton in his pocket.

Where's the joke to make me a comedian?

I query about you reading it as I've not seen it reported anywhere and that sort of thing is quite likely to make national news (or be posted on a forum such as this). Do you have a link to it? What is your local newspaper?

[Prolixia]

ojm, what are batons banned from being and under what legislation?

If you don't mind me jumping in, I believe it's side-handle and friction-lock truncheons/batons, which are illegal to sell or import under s.141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988. The reference to 2004 will have been the date of the amendment to this act that explicitly included these batons within the scope of s.141.

[SkinSte]

If you don't mind me jumping in, I believe it's side-handle and friction-lock truncheons/batons, which are illegal to sell or import under s.141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988. The reference to 2004 will have been the date of the amendment to this act that explicitly included these batons within the scope of s.141.

Yes, but that doesn't mean it's illegal to possess them in your own home, merely to import (like you say).

[karlsmith]

Yes, but that doesn't mean it's illegal to possess them in your own home, merely to import (like you say).

yes it only says that it is illigal to sell or import, not to keep or use .I think it is good to keep a baton for self-defence.

[nic29]

Some thread on here says that batons are not offensive weapons in scotland, so if a security officer in scotland had one in his/hers possession they would be committing an offence: Section 48, Criminal Law (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 1995.

Section 48 as mentioned above is the power of search for an officer who suspects someone being in possession of an article in contravention of a sect 47 offence.

[cfnbryn]

yes it only says that it is illigal to sell or import, not to keep or use .I think it is good to keep a baton for self-defence.

Surely you should feel safe in your own home!
Self defence? I have trained in TaeKwon-Do for 9 years and taught it for 4... that is for self defence. It is there if I need to use it, no matter where I am. I do not beleve anyone needs to keep a baton for self defence. You may aswell have a baseball bat, there is obviously no need to have a baton such as an asp unless you what it concealed.

Umm also I'm sure if you were to use it then there would be a problem.
When I'm on duty drawing my baton or pava etc is always my last option, I will always try and use my mouth and ears to diffuse a situation first.

Granted you can keep one, but I don't see why... it is very similar to people who want to carry speed/kwik cuffs, just incase they need to use them. Personally I see no need for anyone to have them apart from people who will be using them regularly... and I do not think we have any cuff/baton weiling vigilantes nearby.

[funkywingnut]

It is an offensive weapon if no LA or RE is present. Non-violent reasons for having the weapon like fancy dress do count as RE.

Ceremonial dress/uniform is OK because soldier have LA to carry arms and as for religious articles, that is to enable a Sikh for example a practical means of self defence as well as being a reminder of his obligations to weaker members of society as per his religious law.

Military have an exemption either in uniform in civillian clothes, as long as its authorised by the unit.

I believe 'batons' were banned in 2004, due to increasingly growing numbers of unsavoury people carrying/using them for illegal purpose's.

i am sure there is customs between Ireland & UK, I have coma across from NI and there was customs there then. Although the borders are open there is some sort of customs check, otherwise you wouldn't have to have ID to cross the water.

Edited by funkywingnut, 13 January 2010 - 02:39 PM.

[Gelf]

I have a question on this subject that i have just thought of, say i am at home and have my ASP in a safe place at home, my mate who lives one street away rings me and she says there is someone downstairs in her house (a suspected burgular) do i commit an offence if i take my ASP with me to go round and help her (as a police officer)? does my LA to carry it only apply if i am "on duty" (in uniform on a shift)?

[MerseyLLB]

I have a question on this subject that i have just thought of, say i am at home and have my ASP in a safe place at home, my mate who lives one street away rings me and she says there is someone downstairs in her house (a suspected burgular) do i commit an offence if i take my ASP with me to go round and help her (as a police officer)? does my LA to carry it only apply if i am "on duty" (in uniform on a shift)?

Instant arming? Should be fine. Call it in first. Don't fracture intruder's skull.

[funkywingnut]

I have a question on this subject that i have just thought of, say i am at home and have my ASP in a safe place at home, my mate who lives one street away rings me and she says there is someone downstairs in her house (a suspected burgular) do i commit an offence if i take my ASP with me to go round and help her (as a police officer)? does my LA to carry it only apply if i am "on duty" (in uniform on a shift)?

If you called the station explained and reqested they attend you would have LA/RE however, the duty Sgt may tell you not to go then you wouldn't have LA/RE.

[Giraffe]

If you called the station explained and reqested they attend you would have LA/RE however, the duty Sgt may tell you not to go then you wouldn't have LA/RE.

Sorry, what's LA/RE?

[Fry]

Sorry, what's LA/RE?

I'm guessing Lawful Authority and Reasonable Excuse.

[Giraffe]

Ah yes, cheers.

[funkywingnut]

Yeah I was just too lazy to write it in full

[Lucozade]

Instant arming? Should be fine. Call it in first. Don't fracture intruder's skull.

Not really instant arming is it.

On duty officers should be called on 999, off duty officers shouldn't really be running through the streets with their batons. Everyone loves a bit of recall overtime but your friend ringing you and you having your baton at home... PSD might have a word.

[CmdKeen]

It depends why you have it at home, batons aren't CS and strictly audited / controlled. Plenty of people have shifts between stations or no lockers and have their batons and radios at home.

Why on earth would it require a Sgts authorisation for you to have lawful authority? You hold the office of Constable 24/7, you don't have to phone a Sgt to get permission to arrest someone off duty do you?

The difference comes from whether you're wandering around looking for trouble with your baton (a no no in any book), fit to be on duty (not drunk as got the officer down South) and acting in a fit manner (not going mad). In your scenario I'd phone 999 because backup is always good, but have no qualms about going round for a look with a baton, making sure to ensure the time outwith my house was solely on that purpose (no pop into Tesco on the way back)

[funkywingnut]

It depends why you have it at home, batons aren't CS and strictly audited / controlled. Plenty of people have shifts between stations or no lockers and have their batons and radios at home.

Why on earth would it require a Sgts authorisation for you to have lawful authority? You hold the office of Constable 24/7, you don't have to phone a Sgt to get permission to arrest someone off duty do you?

The difference comes from whether you're wandering around looking for trouble with your baton (a no no in any book), fit to be on duty (not drunk as got the officer down South) and acting in a fit manner (not going mad). In your scenario I'd phone 999 because backup is always good, but have no qualms about going round for a look with a baton, making sure to ensure the time outwith my house was solely on that purpose (no pop into Tesco on the way back)

You wouldn't need a Sgt's permission however, its a back up to inform them and it justifys your attendence, similarly if i was going around with a baton (as you have it at home) I would throw on my vest also, if your acting as a policeman then you should be identifiable as much as possible.

[Lucozade]

batons aren't CS

That must be a Fife thing, in my force we think batons are in fact a noxious substance...!

Officers doing OT and other duties away from their usual station take their batons and other kit home, but they shouldn't really be answering their friends distress call and running through the streets; of course there is nothing to stop them doing this. But I'd hope we'd all agree that the friend should be hanging up and dialling 999 instead.

if your acting as a policeman then you should be identifiable as much as possible.

All we need is a small, credit card sized piece of plastic. Nothing else.

Edited by stir_student, 13 January 2010 - 10:15 PM.

[funkywingnut]

That must be a Fife thing, in my force we think batons are in fact a noxious substance...!

Officers doing OT and other duties away from their usual station take their batons and other kit home, but they shouldn't really be answering their friends distress call and running through the streets; of course there is nothing to stop them doing this. But I'd hope we'd all agree that the friend should be hanging up and dialling 999 instead.


All we need is a small, credit card sized piece of plastic. Nothing else.

Maybe so but are you going to hold that in one hand and waqve a baton about in another?

[CmdKeen]

Hmm in retrospect I would wonder why a friend was calling me rather than 999, though having phoned 999 before in Edinburgh in some places they can be rather slow.
I could see it if they were very local, or a neighbour chaps on your door.

As for warrant cards - they work brilliantly in establishing to the polis that you have legal authority to carry a baton in this scenario, Billy the burglar however may not take matters so lightly. If I were to carry my baton and had my stabbie at home as well that might well make the trip, though perhaps under a civvie fleece.

There is the old joke - Man phones 999 to report an intruder in the back garden, they say they have no spare units and can't come. Man phones back to say he's shot the intruder. Police helicopter, trojan units and loads of officers arrive. They get angry when it turns out he hasn't shot anyone saying that he's lied to them, he replies "well you said you had no-one spare"

[Lucozade]

Maybe so but are you going to hold that in one hand and waqve a baton about in another?

I don't think I've ever 'waved' a baton about. The dynamics of the situation would dictate whether I could display my warrant card etc.

[funkywingnut]

I don't think I've ever 'waved' a baton about. The dynamics of the situation would dictate whether I could display my warrant card etc.

Hmm, and when it goes to court the first question is did you identify yourself as a policeman. it would be far easier to justify if you had overt clothing on that said 'police'. Im not saying you cant act otherwise simply that in a dark location its much harder to make the right decision. On the same note if you feel threatended enough to carry your baton to the house why would you not put your vest on, after all you dont patrol without it.

[Gelf]

OK, i forgot to mention in my OP she has already phoned 999 but has then phoned me as she knows i only live round the corner!
sorry for the confusion!

[Lucozade]

Hmm, and when it goes to court the first question is did you identify yourself as a policeman. it would be far easier to justify if you had overt clothing on that said 'police'.

Utter tosh, what is your legal training exactly? Telling them verbally I am police officer is enough, if I am not in uniform I must show my warrant card once it is safe and practical to do so.

On the same note if you feel threatended enough to carry your baton to the house why would you not put your vest on, after all you dont patrol without it.

How do you know what I wear on duty?? Don't presume.