50 replies to this topic

[RMP]

I think it's Sussex that are using the Chubb 1K70 Detainer handcuffs, if it's not Sussex then it's Surrey - I always confuse the two.

Do the said handcuffs, pictured below, have a 'swing-through' action, i.e. you apply them to D/P wrist and the bracelet swings around?

[Addi]

got it in one,

however the powers that be, have chosen to change from chubb to another manufacturer and the new cuffs are really horrid. they down swing round, they jam more often than the chubb cuffs.

thats my rant over and done with for tonight.

[Mark R]

Yes the new ones are made by ASP. The really light and they are good but just don't "feel" as secure. The pros would be the fact you can double lock them from both sides of both wrists, the down sides are you need a key to do it, not just a finger nail to flick the lock. The primary reason they changed (i was told) was because the Chubb's are £80, mine are £19.99! and they ASP's have changeable lock mechanisms, the Chubb's don't.

[Addi]

still prefer my chubb

[RMP]

The benefit of the Chubb handcuffs is that they use a non-standard handcuff key which is tightly controlled by Chubb, as such they're not as readily available as the normal key.

I believe the wholesale price of the 1K70 was £70 whereas its £12 for the ASP handcuffs. I posted a video on this forum a while back demonstrating how easy it is to escape from the ASP handcuffs; with the 1K70 you can buy separate inserts for females and juveniles further increasing the security.

[SCMike]

On my last visit to a buddy in Sussex we compared notes (well cuffs actually!). He hadn't seen Speedcuffs before and was impressed when he tried them. It was my first introduction to the Chubbs, but I have one main issue with them - they allow the wrists to be considerably further apart than Speedcuffs or the "old issue" Hiatt chain cuffs - and that's BAD news! We took some photos to illustarte the difference, I think it was around 7.5cms - I'll sort one out and post it here for you all to see what I mean.
And then of course there's the difference in cost ..... !
Mike

[Basil the Rat]

Cuffs is cuffs as far as I'm concerned, as long as they work I'm not too bothered who's or what they are.

[Grand Master (The Wise One)]

I think it's Sussex that are using the Chubb 1K70 Detainer handcuffs, if it's not Sussex then it's Surrey - I always confuse the two.

Do the said handcuffs, pictured below, have a 'swing-through' action, i.e. you apply them to D/P wrist and the bracelet swings around?

Hi RMP,
Yes those were our handcuffs in Sussex and they do swing through. The reason we don't use them now is cost. Chubbs were charging us as much to mend them as it was to supply a new pair of cuffs We are now changing over to ASPs awe we can buy about three sets of new ones as the Chubbs cost.

In preference I prefer the Chubbs because of the ease of the deadlock but having said that we had to have proper Handcuff drills for putting them on and another one for taking them off. At least with the ASPs you can get to the lock from either side but the deadlock is a lot more difficult at least in poor light or at night.
Regards
GM

[Grand Master (The Wise One)]

On my last visit to a buddy in Sussex we compared notes (well cuffs actually!). He hadn't seen Speedcuffs before and was impressed when he tried them. It was my first introduction to the Chubbs, but I have one main issue with them - they allow the wrists to be considerably further apart than Speedcuffs or the "old issue" Hiatt chain cuffs - and that's BAD news! We took some photos to illustarte the difference, I think it was around 7.5cms - I'll sort one out and post it here for you all to see what I mean.
And then of course there's the difference in cost ..... !
Mike

Hi SC MIKE,
It doesn't matter what cuffs you use because if you train handcuffing back to back (Hands) it makes escaping almost impossible and as our drills that are taught in Sussex a handcuffed person should always be supervised so that it makes even stepping through the handcuffs impossible. Any of my students in Sussex tell you that when I handcuff I have two drills that I always adhere to ( one for applying the cuffs and one for their safe removal) I also invented the CAD drill which ensures the safety and the well being of the prisoner and I have never lost a prisoner in 30 years. I say almost impossible to escape from, as I believe there is a video of a female who could dislocate her shoulder joints and bring the cuffs up and over her head - very difficult when the hands are back to back!!
Regards
GM

Edited by Grand Master (The Wise One), 22 April 2007 - 04:26 PM.

[En Garde]

Hi SC MIKE,
It doesn't matter what cuffs you use because if you train handcuffing back to back (Hands) it makes escaping almost impossible and as our drills that are taught in Sussex a handcuffed person should always be supervised so that it makes even stepping through the handcuffs impossible. Any of my students in Sussex tell you that when I handcuff I have two drills that I always adhere to ( one for applying the cuffs and one for their safe removal) I also invented the CAD drill which ensures the safety and the well being of the prisoner and I have never lost a prisoner in 30 years. I say almost impossible to escape from, as I believe there is a video of a female who could dislocate her shoulder joints and bring the cuffs up and over her head - very difficult when the hands are back to back!!
Regards
GM

Yes and that video is most disturbing especially when she was in the in company of two officers.

I too prefer the Chubb cuffs and am trying hard to retain them. The Asp cuffs are cheaper and to be honest feel cheaper as well.

Although apparently (according to regular prisoners) the Asp cuffs a re more comfortable - that’s ok then.

[cat thing]

Having gone through initial training with both the Chubbs and Speedcuffs, I have to say that I much prefer the Chubbs...Speedcuffs are horrible!!!

They are (personal opinion!) easier to apply, but the pain! I think during training I was handcuffed more times with the Chubbs, but had no adverse affects...with the Speedcuffs, I had visible abrasions and bruising to both wrists that remained for over a week.

While I did find the Chubbs awkward to hold (little hands!), I much prefer them.

[Basil the Rat]

Having gone through initial training with both the Chubbs and Speedcuffs, I have to say that I much prefer the Chubbs...Speedcuffs are horrible!!!

They are (personal opinion!) easier to apply, but the pain! I think during training I was handcuffed more times with the Chubbs, but had no adverse affects...with the Speedcuffs, I had visible abrasions and bruising to both wrists that remained for over a week.

While I did find the Chubbs awkward to hold (little hands!), I much prefer them.

Interesting point. My standard issue cuffs were ASPs, but I inherited a pair of Chubbs that I have been using. It would seem that even with proper application, the clients prefer to be cuffed with the Chubbs as they appear to be more comfortable than the ASPs.

Discuss...

[En Garde]

On my intake, we had the pleasure of training with both - although we were issued the Chubbs.

I personally found the Asps more comfortable (as a detainee) but found the Chubbs preferable (as an officer)

[Hades]

Are you lot taught any sort of pain compliance techniques for use with your cuffs?

[En Garde]

Mmm not taught, but I think if I remember correctly we may have been ‘shown’

[Hades]

Mmm not taught, but I think if I remember correctly we may have been ‘shown’

That's what I assumed... Seems strange given that pain compliance with cuffs is a big thing in OST in other forces. Any idea why Sussex uses chainlink cuffs rather than rigid cuffs like everywhere else?

[RMP]

That's what I assumed... Seems strange given that pain compliance with cuffs is a big thing in OST in other forces. Any idea why Sussex uses chainlink cuffs rather than rigid cuffs like everywhere else?

Too many injuries sustained from rigid cuffs, whereas far fewer occur with chained cuffs.

[Grand Master (The Wise One)]

That's what I assumed... Seems strange given that pain compliance with cuffs is a big thing in OST in other forces. Any idea why Sussex uses chainlink cuffs rather than rigid cuffs like everywhere else?

Hi Dangermouse,
We don't use nor have we ever considered using Quik-Kuf or Speed cuffs in Sussex because we felt that compliance through pain was an integral part of Human Rights and the amount of wrist injuries it would cause. Our Handcuffing rule is CONTROL FIRST-HANDCUFF SECOND.

Having watched the inventor of the Quik-Kuf use them when I was on a course in the States, I can see they can be very effective but it would take a lot of practice to get to that standard, bearing in mind the officers out there have to attend and pass Staff Safety monthly in order to stay in their jobs, the standard is very high.

Even forces in the UK are now being restricted in the amount of handcuff techniques they can use while we have kept our set programme all the way through. Its safe to say that in the past three years or so that we have not suffered a handcuffing injury or more important have not received any complaint about handcuffing that I am aware of. So we must be doing something right.

regards
GM

Edited by Grand Master (The Wise One), 27 April 2007 - 06:20 AM.

[RMP]

Having watched the inventor of the Quik-Kuf use them when I was on a course in the States, I can see they can be very effective but it would take a lot of practice to get to that standard, bearing in mind the officers out there have to attend and pass Staff Safety monthly in order to stay in their jobs, the standard is very high.

Your officers have to renew their SPT monthly, now that is good

Isn't Sussex the force that photographs the prisoners wrists after arrival in custody to prevent any spurious claims of injury? The control first, handcuff second is a really important principle which every force should teach but the Speedcuff makes it easier to control first and then handcuff.

[Addi]

Your officers have to renew their SPT monthly, now that is good

Isn't Sussex the force that photographs the prisoners wrists after arrival in custody to prevent any spurious claims of injury? The control first, handcuff second is a really important principle which every force should teach but the Speedcuff makes it easier to control first and then handcuff.

no we dont photograph our DP's wrists, only when needed.

now how do you control your prisoner with the speed cuffs without handcuffing? hit them over the head with it in laurel and hardy style

[Ricky Diamond]

Lots of rope Addi. Then pulling one end of the rope really quickly at custody to send them into a compliant dizzy spinning state.

[RMP]

now how do you control your prisoner with the speed cuffs without handcuffing? hit them over the head with it in laurel and hardy style

Once you've applied the first cuff to one of their wrists you use the plastic bar in the centre as leverage by tightening the shackle so their hand doesn't move freely and rotating the cuff about 90 degrees. You are then in a position, their palm will be facing upwards, to pull down and push up so they will end up on the floor and then you can use compliance to finish off cuffing.

[Bond]

Once you've applied the first cuff to one of their wrists you use the plastic bar in the centre as leverage by tightening the shackle so their hand doesn't move freely and rotating the cuff about 90 degrees. You are then in a position, their palm will be facing upwards, to pull down and push up so they will end up on the floor and then you can use compliance to finish off cuffing.

We do it with the palm facing downwards

[RMP]

We do it with the palm facing downwards

If there palm is facing downwards then surely you're not able to exert any pressure on the arm for compliance?

[gosling]

I have to say (bearing in mind i have never used chubbs), my asp's do the job, they cuff, and restrain, and like GM has said, if it is applied correctly then they are affective. the only thing i dont like about them is the fact that the cuff doesnt tend to like swinging round. I know they do, as have done it in training, but have found on the street when you havent got time to think about it, the occasions i have used them, that they dont swing round that well, which in turn means that you have to use your other hand swing them round.
apart from that moan, i have found that they do the job fine. a cuff is a cuff, as long as they work then i dont really mind