481 replies to this topic

[Queeg]

Just been reading the online edition of Evening Express there and someone has a right cob on about the doormen at Soul, nowadays the number of establishments were I don't look out of place due to my 'seniority' is dwindling !!

Doormen at Soul - Evening Express today.

http://www.thisisabe...;pNodeId=148317

Can't say I've had any issues with the door staff there. The only places I've had issues with door staff (and, with one exception, they've all been very minor) have been in the dodgier bars, so I'm not in the slightest bit worried if I'm not welcome in any of them.

I'm heading to Soul on Saturday come to think of it. Well, I'm supposed to be. One of the 2 people I was going with has decided that they are now unsure and I don't think the other person will come out on their own with me. Wonder why...

But I'm sure you'll get to know the places quite well, no doubt we'll all have to have a "March intake night out" at some point.

With regards to "seniority", I wouldn't worry about that. Just avoid the student places. I'm young, and I avoid them (most of the time, one place I get cheap drinks because I've convinced them I'm still a student!)

[GrampianCop]

Can't say I've had any issues with the door staff there. The only places I've had issues with door staff (and, with one exception, they've all been very minor) have been in the dodgier bars, so I'm not in the slightest bit worried if I'm not welcome in any of them.

I'm heading to Soul on Saturday come to think of it. Well, I'm supposed to be. One of the 2 people I was going with has decided that they are now unsure and I don't think the other person will come out on their own with me. Wonder why...

But I'm sure you'll get to know the places quite well, no doubt we'll all have to have a "March intake night out" at some point.

With regards to "seniority", I wouldn't worry about that. Just avoid the student places. I'm young, and I avoid them (most of the time, one place I get cheap drinks because I've convinced them I'm still a student!)

March intake night out during the first week would be an idea - as I would think when we reach Tulliallan on Sunday we will be getting ragged on the Monday morning to break us in !!

Whilst I have the scars that come with age, I can indeed genuinely claim to be a student as I am currently studying for a law degree so I would think that qualifies me for student prices !!! (Then again maybe not) !

[Queeg]

March intake night out during the first week would be an idea - as I would think when we reach Tulliallan on Sunday we will be getting ragged on the Monday morning to break us in !!

Whilst I have the scars that come with age, I can indeed genuinely claim to be a student as I am currently studying for a law degree so I would think that qualifies me for student prices !!! (Then again maybe not) !

Indeed, the first week would be ideal, give everyone a chance to get to know each other. I've met at least one person who's going to be on our intake (unless he did sneak into the February intake) and I think I may have been on selection day with another (PS kvandel, if you're reading this, clear out your PM inbox, I can't reply to your PM!!). I'm sure something will be arranged throughout the time!

Students. Bah. Scroungers, the lot of you! Well, the way I got student prices was to tell them a big lie. The bar in question offers a discount card for students which does bring the price of drinks down significantly. That's 2 years I've gone in to pick up a card, but I do it at just the right time to claim that I haven't yet matriculated and hence I haven't picked up my ID card yet. Works everytime!

Edited by Queeg, 07 February 2007 - 10:54 PM.

[GrampianCop]

Indeed, the first week would be ideal, give everyone a chance to get to know each other. I've met at least one person who's going to be on our intake (unless he did sneak into the February intake) and I think I may have been on selection day with another (PS kvandel, if you're reading this, clear out your PM inbox, I can't reply to your PM!!). I'm sure something will be arranged throughout the time!

Students. Bah. Scroungers, the lot of you! Well, the way I got student prices was to tell them a big lie. The bar in question offers a discount card for students which does bring the price of drinks down significantly. That's 2 years I've gone in to pick up a card, but I do it at just the right time to claim that I haven't yet matriculated and hence I haven't picked up my ID card yet. Works everytime!

Hmm......know all the tricks do we ?? lol

[Queeg]

Hmm......know all the tricks do we ?? lol

I wish. I still had to pay for the card! I never got one this year either, the staff in the bar had changed over and the trick (not strictly a trick, the barman who gave me the card 2 years running knew my face) didn't really work.

I was a student for 4 years anyway, so I've learned a few tricks in my time.

[GrampianCop]

I wish. I still had to pay for the card! I never got one this year either, the staff in the bar had changed over and the trick (not strictly a trick, the barman who gave me the card 2 years running knew my face) didn't really work.

I was a student for 4 years anyway, so I've learned a few tricks in my time.

I'll bet !!!

Are you one of these ones that when we all approach the Bar, your walking pace begins to slow to allow everyone else to get there first !! lol I know a Colonel from my old Regiment who was an expert at that capers !

Anyways as an aside, I am definately starting on 12th March - that has just been confirmed today and contract will be prepared and sent out towards the end of next week !

Edited by GrampianCop, 08 February 2007 - 03:15 PM.

[Queeg]

I'll bet !!!

Are you one of these ones that when we all approach the Bar, your walking pace begins to slow to allow everyone else to get there first !! lol I know a Colonel from my old Regiment who was an expert at that capers !

Anyways as an aside, I am definately starting on 12th March - that has just been confirmed today and contract will be prepared and sent out towards the end of next week !

Hmm, I've tried that trick but it didn't work!

It's confirmed for you, good stuff! Did they get in contact with you, or did you phone them? I've not heard a dickie-bird yet, except when I phoned them last week to see if it was worth handing in my notice (they said I should as I was scheduled for a March intake, so I assume that means I'm confirmed...). Good news about contracts, that should mean I'll hopefully get mine too and it shouldn't be too long till we find out Divisions/Stations, uniform fitting, swearing-in times etc.

[GrampianCop]

Hmm, I've tried that trick but it didn't work!

It's confirmed for you, good stuff! Did they get in contact with you, or did you phone them? I've not heard a dickie-bird yet, except when I phoned them last week to see if it was worth handing in my notice (they said I should as I was scheduled for a March intake, so I assume that means I'm confirmed...). Good news about contracts, that should mean I'll hopefully get mine too and it shouldn't be too long till we find out Divisions/Stations, uniform fitting, swearing-in times etc.

The only reason it was confirmed was because I was having a right carry on with my previous employer providing certain documentation and kept the pressure up all last week. I phoned them today to make sure that they were satisifed with a solution that was proposed and they confirmed that they were indeed. They then told me on the phone that as I have now had my application review and they have the documentation required I was confirmed for a start on 12th March and they congratulated me. If they told you mate your on the March intake then I would get cracking, how much notice do you have to give ?

She definately said that my contract would be sent out next week (so I can only presume that means all of them), uniform fitting will follow. Swearing in will take place on the first week sometime.

Im now debating if I should get over there and rent somewhere as she said there was no space at Nelson Street for me to stay, and that I probably would not be able to park my car there either - I can hardly leave it parked anywhere else !!

[Queeg]

The only reason it was confirmed was because I was having a right carry on with my previous employer providing certain documentation and kept the pressure up all last week. I phoned them today to make sure that they were satisifed with a solution that was proposed and they confirmed that they were indeed. They then told me on the phone that as I have now had my application review and they have the documentation required I was confirmed for a start on 12th March and they congratulated me. If they told you mate your on the March intake then I would get cracking, how much notice do you have to give ?

She definately said that my contract would be sent out next week (so I can only presume that means all of them), uniform fitting will follow. Swearing in will take place on the first week sometime.

Im now debating if I should get over there and rent somewhere as she said there was no space at Nelson Street for me to stay, and that I probably would not be able to park my car there either - I can hardly leave it parked anywhere else !!

It's alright, my notice went in last week as a result of the phone call. I officially leave work on the 11th but I've a week's holiday beforehand (to use up all my leave, I didn't want to be working there any longer than I had to!). As an aside, I've apparently annoyed everyone at work (as I've been told just there on the phone...) by refusing to schedule in a leaving-do yet, but that's not me being anti-social! (I'm actually quite busy through every weekend until I start on the 12th!)

I had my application review on the same day as my fitness test (18th Jan I think it was) though it was just too short notice to get in for the February intake. Then there was the whole malarkey with this medical issue I had, that got resolved and then I was straight on the phone to recruitment. I was informed at the time that contracts would be dealt with after they'd got Feb's intake sorted, there was some rush with them but it's good that it seems to be moving quicker. Swearing in will be that week, but I'm wondering when it is, I've asked my parents along to it but it's just so they can get time off work.

Yeah, you'll probably need to rent somewhere for the week. There's always a stack of places up for rent, alternatively you could try a B&B for the week if you can't get a week's rental on a flat. There's plenty of car parking around Nelson Street, when I had selection processes I parked either across King Street near the Mercedes Garage or just up behind the bus depot (just watch though, there's sometimes parking restrictions during football matches). Parking on Nelson Street itself does exist, but it's Pay & Display with a 2 or 3 hour maximum time limit, so you're better across King Street.

[GrampianCop]

Yeah, you'll probably need to rent somewhere for the week. There's always a stack of places up for rent, alternatively you could try a B&B for the week if you can't get a week's rental on a flat. There's plenty of car parking around Nelson Street, when I had selection processes I parked either across King Street near the Mercedes Garage or just up behind the bus depot (just watch though, there's sometimes parking restrictions during football matches). Parking on Nelson Street itself does exist, but it's Pay & Display with a 2 or 3 hour maximum time limit, so you're better across King Street.

Your lucky to get a leaving doo at all, I was in the Army 17 years and got no doo, however thats another long story !

Their hands should be free of the Feb intake as they all start on Monday so I am sure we will get things moving next week.

I meant parking at the actual Nelson Street Station, I don't fancy leaving my car elsewhere while I am away throughout the week. I might just go ahead and rent an Apartment (with its own secure parking space) if I find out my Division quick enough because I don't quite like the idea of living out of a suitcase for 19 weeks. Recruitment will inform me next week if they can accommodate me and my car until I get myself settled - I don't think I would be able to get everything I need to bring onto a flight - hence the preference to bring the motor.

The 'swearing in' ceremony is usually held on a Wed night I was informed, but I probably won't ask anyone to that.

[Queeg]

Your lucky to get a leaving doo at all, I was in the Army 17 years and got no doo, however thats another long story !

Their hands should be free of the Feb intake as they all start on Monday so I am sure we will get things moving next week.

I meant parking at the actual Nelson Street Station, I don't fancy leaving my car elsewhere while I am away throughout the week. I might just go ahead and rent an Apartment (with its own secure parking space) if I find out my Division quick enough because I don't quite like the idea of living out of a suitcase for 19 weeks. Recruitment will inform me next week if they can accommodate me and my car until I get myself settled - I don't think I would be able to get everything I need to bring onto a flight - hence the preference to bring the motor.

The 'swearing in' ceremony is usually held on a Wed night I was informed, but I probably won't ask anyone to that.

Well, my leaving do should have been on Saturday but nobody wants to go (well, I've one person possibly going but I really doubt it now!) then and I can't fit one in until sometime...I don't know! But, that's just the usual story isn't it.

Ah I see what you mean. I suppose it's down to the lack of spaces at Nelson Street, most of them are taken up by service vehicles I quite often see. If you can get secure parking at an apartment, go for it, that's certainly what I'd do. You'll definitely need more than you can fit on a flight!

[GrampianCop]

Well, my leaving do should have been on Saturday but nobody wants to go (well, I've one person possibly going but I really doubt it now!) then and I can't fit one in until sometime...I don't know! But, that's just the usual story isn't it.

Ah I see what you mean. I suppose it's down to the lack of spaces at Nelson Street, most of them are taken up by service vehicles I quite often see. If you can get secure parking at an apartment, go for it, that's certainly what I'd do. You'll definitely need more than you can fit on a flight!

Apparently we get 'transport' provided each Friday and Sunday to bring us to and from Tulliallan - so keep that stop off for the 'special brew' in mind !!

Do you know much else about the 15 weeks at Tulliallan ?

[Queeg]

Apparently we get 'transport' provided each Friday and Sunday to bring us to and from Tulliallan - so keep that stop off for the 'special brew' in mind !!

Do you know much else about the 15 weeks at Tulliallan ?

I've heard they run transport for us, which is nice because it's one less cost to worry about! That stop has got to happen! I wonder if we will be allowed to take our own transport occasionally as I've friends down that neck of the woods and I may pay them a visit at some point.

I've gathered a decent bit of information regarding Tulliallan, I know about the accommodation, exercise facilities, I've even checked out the course syllabus, and best off...there is a bar (I must sound like an alcoholic!). I'm not too sure about catering facilities, I've never actually asked anybody about them, which is surprising because food normally comes quite high on the list of my priorities!

[GrampianCop]

I've heard they run transport for us, which is nice because it's one less cost to worry about! That stop has got to happen! I wonder if we will be allowed to take our own transport occasionally as I've friends down that neck of the woods and I may pay them a visit at some point.

I've gathered a decent bit of information regarding Tulliallan, I know about the accommodation, exercise facilities, I've even checked out the course syllabus, and best off...there is a bar (I must sound like an alcoholic!). I'm not too sure about catering facilities, I've never actually asked anybody about them, which is surprising because food normally comes quite high on the list of my priorities!

Aye, I have been told you can but that means its at your own expense as the Force will not pay travel allowances. I have heard about the 'Bar' and we are encouraged to frequent it (I won't need much encouragement mind you). The food at Tulliallan is not great according to some, but I will reserve judgement on that until I sample it myself.

[Queeg]

Aye, I have been told you can but that means its at your own expense as the Force will not pay travel allowances. I have heard about the 'Bar' and we are encouraged to frequent it (I won't need much encouragement mind you). The food at Tulliallan is not great according to some, but I will reserve judgement on that until I sample it myself.

Yeah, I'd assume I'd have to pay it myself. It's not something I'll do frequently, quite possibly just the once or twice. Either that, or I could take a bus or something from Kincardine out to Stirling. I'll figure that out when I'm down there though.

I won't need encouragement either. None at all!

I think I'll have to reserve judgement too, but in any case, ambulance on standby...(probably not, at least I'm not going to do the cooking!)

[Wizardarian]

Holy Policeman batman!! i was away only a day or so any already the conversations span many many pages! crikey!.

So yeah GrampianCop, your wizard here would luv to go out for a drink with you lot. Sounds good.. and yeah to your luck, ill get the rounds in.. because I have a matriculation card for Robert Gordon's University because i want to finish my degree.. which i suppose would answer another question you've asked... and i've applied for the specials so i can be 'part time cop'!
My Degree is in Computing : Internet and Multimedia. , I also have a diploma in Computing : Software development. So im wondering if .. once inside the force i can perhaps tidy up any old systems and develop some new programs to help things Who knows? it was just an idea that ran through my head last night. Because when i was down at my local station asking lots and lots of questions the other week , the inspector there said to me 'What is a computer student like you applying for the police for?' and i wasn't quite sure what to answer... I obviously knew he meant i am in the wrong line of work for my qualifications. But being a special constable is like.. theee best possible thing i could do with my time besides university and drinking. (don't take that the wrong way).

Anyways.. to the point. Yes.. i know a trick or two also.. im not called 'magic' for nothing. So.. drink in town huh? cool. To be honest Queeg, your right i don't really go to Rileys much anymore also.. i don't drink in town too much anyways, but ill more than happily come in to have a 'get to know everyone' drink. It'll be nice to see who im talking to anyways if i don't ever work with any of you. yeah..and what stage am i? i have no idea.. not even done my medical yet. I spoke to the Sgt Chalmers... he said.. 'maybe march intake'.. so.. ?????

-Wizard-
(i hope all of that reads ok.. i kinda rambled a bit)

Edited by Wizardarian, 09 February 2007 - 05:09 PM.

[Gazza]

Guys,
You're correct about not getting travel expenses as they will lay on transport for you to travel between Aberdeen and the college (and vice versa). Usually you'll arrange with other course members as to who shares with who etc. There'll be fuel cards provided for you to ensure that the vehicles are all topped up after you've finished with them.
Training dept will keep you right on that one.
Don't worry about the food at Tulli. It's noy as bad as everyone makes out. if, however, you're flush and feeling like a change, the local kebab/Indian/chinese all have delivery services diredt to the college. Ideal for any special occasions.
The copper Lounge is open till 10.15 (ish) most nights except sundays when it's open till 11. There is a strict policy on drinking up and leaving quietly as the bar shuts, as well as duty Sgts and Inspector there to ensure you behave!!!
Oh, and you should be able to still claim OT for travelling as well.
Cheers
Gaz

[GrampianCop]

Guys,
You're correct about not getting travel expenses as they will lay on transport for you to travel between Aberdeen and the college (and vice versa). Usually you'll arrange with other course members as to who shares with who etc. There'll be fuel cards provided for you to ensure that the vehicles are all topped up after you've finished with them.
Training dept will keep you right on that one.
Don't worry about the food at Tulli. It's noy as bad as everyone makes out. if, however, you're flush and feeling like a change, the local kebab/Indian/chinese all have delivery services diredt to the college. Ideal for any special occasions.
The copper Lounge is open till 10.15 (ish) most nights except sundays when it's open till 11. There is a strict policy on drinking up and leaving quietly as the bar shuts, as well as duty Sgts and Inspector there to ensure you behave!!!
Oh, and you should be able to still claim OT for travelling as well.
Cheers
Gaz

Ahh Gazza.

The duty Kebab - always a winner as the glucose in the body goes haywire after a few beers !!

10.15 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will only be warming up by that stage !! lol

I have been Duty Officer when ive brought my Duty Sgt many a time when the Paras had to be encouraged to leave the NAAFI - but I suspect potential Officers should be far better behaved !!

You have me all interested by the 'OT' for travelling which I assume means overtime ?? Now that is a concept that is most unique and something I never had (paid 24 hours a day an all that) during my 17 year career in the military - do tell more - is there much overtime available in the operational scene ?

Edited by GrampianCop, 09 February 2007 - 05:21 PM.

[Gazza]

You have me all interested by the 'OT' for travelling which I assume means overtime ?? Now that is a concept that is most unique and something I never had (paid 24 hours a day an all that) during my 17 year career in the military - do tell more - is there much overtime available in the operational scene ?

I'll PM you details

[GrampianCop]

Holy Policeman batman!! i was away only a day or so any already the conversations span many many pages! crikey!.

So yeah GrampianCop, your wizard here would luv to go out for a drink with you lot. Sounds good.. and yeah to your luck, ill get the rounds in.. because I have a matriculation card for Robert Gordon's University because i want to finish my degree.. which i suppose would answer another question you've asked... and i've applied for the specials so i can be 'part time cop'!
My Degree is in Computing : Internet and Multimedia. , I also have a diploma in Computing : Software development. So im wondering if .. once inside the force i can perhaps tidy up any old systems and develop some new programs to help things Who knows? it was just an idea that ran through my head last night. Because when i was down at my local station asking lots and lots of questions the other week , the inspector there said to me 'What is a computer student like you applying for the police for?' and i wasn't quite sure what to answer... I obviously knew he meant i am in the wrong line of work for my qualifications. But being a special constable is like.. theee best possible thing i could do with my time besides university and drinking. (don't take that the wrong way).

Anyways.. to the point. Yes.. i know a trick or two also.. im not called 'magic' for nothing. So.. drink in town huh? cool. To be honest Queeg, your right i don't really go to Rileys much anymore also.. i don't drink in town too much anyways, but ill more than happily come in to have a 'get to know everyone' drink. It'll be nice to see who im talking to anyways if i don't ever work with any of you. yeah..and what stage am i? i have no idea.. not even done my medical yet. I spoke to the Sgt Chalmers... he said.. 'maybe march intake'.. so.. ?????

-Wizard-
(i hope all of that reads ok.. i kinda rambled a bit)

Well its not like your making Policing your full time career, maybe he missed the point about being a 'Special' which brings a wide variety of people from diverse backgrounds into making a contribution to their community. Maybe he/she thought you were applying for the Regulars ?? Or am I the one missing something ?

Ive been visiting a few websites this afternoon (Liquid, Jumpin Jacks etc etc) to get an idea what the night scene is like over there, although my days of blending in with youth culture is becoming difficult !!

Jeez, you should know what stage your at bud....if you haven't done the medical yet that is the 2nd stage, because there is the assessed interview and fitness assessment after the medical unless its all back to front ? Have you done the interview/fitness yet ?

What sort of training do Specials do, is it all 'in-force' training ?

Edited by GrampianCop, 09 February 2007 - 06:02 PM.

[Wizardarian]

*IGNORE THIS MESSAGE*

Edited by Wizardarian, 11 February 2007 - 03:07 PM.

[GrampianCop]

I've been told i'll be put through 5 weeks training. It's a lot of roleplay stuff with actors to make sure i can put up with certain situations such as domestic abuse, violence etc. I've been told however that if i fail to pass this i can still be refused as a constable. I suspect that is because there has been some (now i am in no way meaning to sound sexist) but some women who have made it in and then gotten a bit to scared about certain realities they may encounter. Such as seeing a women in tears in her kitchen whilst badly bruised, then having to relate to it. Some (understandably) would just say 'no... sorry, i can't do this'.
This training however still seems to be fairly good but at the same time in no way intense as your military fife stuff your getting up to. To be honest i feel a bit jelous, you and Queeg all sound soo excited about going down and i'll be left behind.
This training covers various scenarious, then there is a day dedicated to basic fighting, Baton, cs spray techniques along with handcuff training. This is all what another officer told me at my local station anyways.
Gazza you got anything to add to that? Come on you gotta reply to something i've said ... u've been ignoring me for a whilst now!
I can't talk about it with any authority you see, because i simply haven't done it yet.

Hmmm.....im still no clearer on where you are in the recruitment process at all !! You haven't answered, maybe you should be a politician instead ?? lol

In any event, wherever you are in the recruitment process - good luck with the rest of it !! As for Tulliallan, its never too late to change your application to a regulars application.

Edited by GrampianCop, 09 February 2007 - 06:57 PM.

[Wizardarian]

Politicians are something i could reckon with, however it's not for me. My charismatic charm is best kept for entertainment. Well no.. as i said earlier im studying. Im soo close to having a Bsc Honours Degree i'd rather finish it. So either way before i do the annoying thing and 'bump' up to regulars i'll have to wait a year and a half i'd say. I'll have the Bsc in July but there is a few extra credit modules in my honours year i'd like to get on multimedia programming and science of Management. and some business modules. All of which will end up ultimately useless in my police career.
I mentioned it seemed annoying to go from special to regular. I have the feeling the police force deems it seedy and irritating for people to 'try out' police work by becoming special constables only to finally apply for regular officer or quit being a special. Where as in my circumstances it is the only thing i can do.. i simply don't have enough time to work on my honours and also becoming a full time police officer.
All in all i'll have to wait and see.
Perhaps my education and qualifications in the end could prove to be more usefull though once i (if) apply for full time policework.

-Magic-

[GrampianCop]

Politicians are something i could reckon with, however it's not for me. My charismatic charm is best kept for entertainment. Well no.. as i said earlier im studying. Im soo close to having a Bsc Honours Degree i'd rather finish it. So either way before i do the annoying thing and 'bump' up to regulars i'll have to wait a year and a half i'd say. I'll have the Bsc in July but there is a few extra credit modules in my honours year i'd like to get on multimedia programming and science of Management. and some business modules. All of which will end up ultimately useless in my police career.
I mentioned it seemed annoying to go from special to regular. I have the feeling the police force deems it seedy and irritating for people to 'try out' police work by becoming special constables only to finally apply for regular officer or quit being a special. Where as in my circumstances it is the only thing i can do.. i simply don't have enough time to work on my honours and also becoming a full time police officer.
All in all i'll have to wait and see.
Perhaps my education and qualifications in the end could prove to be more usefull though once i (if) apply for full time policework.

-Magic-

I would say they could benefit you later in your career if you wanted to specialise in High Tech crime investigation or something along those lines.

Edited by GrampianCop, 09 February 2007 - 07:32 PM.

[Gazza]

I've been told i'll be put through 5 weeks training.

Erm, nope. More like 5 weekends.

It's a lot of roleplay stuff with actors to make sure i can put up with certain situations such as domestic abuse, violence etc.

Erm, nope. There may be some element to that, but it is unlikely to be a major factor.

I've been told however that if i fail to pass this i can still be refused as a constable.

True

I suspect that is because there has been some (now i am in no way meaning to sound sexist) but some women who have made it in and then gotten a bit to scared about certain realities they may encounter. Such as seeing a women in tears in her kitchen whilst badly bruised, then having to relate to it. Some (understandably) would just say 'no... sorry, i can't do this'.

You are being sexist here mate. I would seriously consider that you have a good think about what you've said here.

This training covers various scenarious, then there is a day dedicated to basic fighting, Baton, cs spray techniques along with handcuff training.

Again, Erm, nope. It is defined as Officer Safety Training. Fighting it is not. You will be taught defensive techniques, not offensive.
b

The majority of your initial training weekends will consist of OST, basic legislation (Sec 14, Sec 23 etc), arrest procedures, utilising police computer systems, PNB inputs and so on.
Further monthly training evenings will supplement your initial course and the rest will be made up of on the job training more or less.
Hope that helps.
Gaz

Edited by Gazza, 09 February 2007 - 08:26 PM.