68 replies to this topic

[Ram1us]

The problem with the death penalty, as i see it, is not the judicial tasking of a condemed person's life, but the fact that there is always the possibility of having got it wrong. Once a person is executed and it is later proved that they were innocent, the sentence cannot be revoked nor the prisoner set free. Granted, if a person is sent to prison for 20 odd years and it turns out that they were innocent you can't give the time back, but financial and other forms of compensation can be made.

It is not the taking of life that i oppose, but the possibility that it could be an error. I also look at it this way..... Would I want to be the executioner? Would you?

[Whopper MacBig]

I also look at it this way..... Would I want to be the executioner? Would you?

Robert Thomson, Jon Venables, Ian Huntley, Robert Black, Roy Whiting ..... quite honestly, I would have absolutely NO PROBLEM with pulling the lever/trigger.

Attached Files

•  sarah_payne.jpg   7.37K   4 downloads

[Kevinl03]

Robert Thomson, Jon Venables, Ian Huntley, Robert Black, Roy Whiting ..... quite honestly, I would have absolutely NO PROBLEM pulling the lever/trigger.

I couldn't agree more.

Thompson and Venables were interviewed at my nick, the dreadful crime they committed - in my area. There are officers knocking around my nick that were personally involved in the case.

I think the way they have been released and given new identities, new lives is an absolute disgrace. Does Denise Bulger get a new life? Or a chance to start again?
The offenders have ended up better off than thse they affected so inhumanely.

That said however, I would rather see them locked up for the rest of their lives than executed - being executed is a let-off for these people. They should be locked in a cell 20 hours a day with no TV or Playstation, with nothing to do but mull over the heinous crime they have committed.

[YazzyB]

if we cant hang ehm then treat them as for what they are SCUM
no messin about no mamby pamby ideas about oh they had a poor upbringing etc etc bo*****s. no stupid scap metal prison ships
take a life then expect the sentance to be harsh. rape a woman expect the same
fiddle with a child then dont ask for any mercy

build a prison on some where like anthrax or easter island and let them fend for themselves and ROT IN HELL

[TUNNEL RAT]

if we cant hang ehm  then treat them as for what they are SCUM
no messin about  no mamby pamby ideas about oh they had a poor upbringing  etc etc  bo*****s.  no stupid scap metal prison ships
take a life then expect the sentance to be harsh. rape a woman expect the same
fiddle with a child then dont ask for any mercy

build a prison on some where like anthrax or easter  island and let them fend for themselves  and ROT IN HELL

couldn't agree more first one to fiddle with my kids gets death legal or not

[Ram1us]

Please dont get me wrong here guys, IF there is definate 100% evidence that a person had comitted the crime, then i can see that there is an argument for the death penalty. I just dont think i could bring myself to acyually be the executioner. maybe that makes me a wuss, but i think that kev's answer is a good one, leave em in a prison to rot. if they want food, they can have the left overs from bins. Prison should be just that, i.e. a prison not a holiday camp. No way ahould they have playstations or TV's, i thought prison was a punishment?

I don't have kids yet, but when i do, i agree with the last post, anyone touches them or hurts them in any way will suffer.

[Godfather]

I don't have kids yet, but when i do, i agree with the last post, anyone touches them or hurts them in any way will suffer.

But of course, that is human nature and most people would feel the same. But under those circumstances you can't think rationally and be fair, and why should you. That is why we have a legal system and the victim can't choose the sentance, as thieves and bag snatchers would be executed!

[Tyler]

reading some of the posts in here i can fully understand why this country now has one of the biggest crime rates in europe

why communities are plagued with youths who have absolutly no respect for authority what so ever

I think a lot to do with the parents

why i am afraid for my mother father sister wife and children to walk home at night

Could not agree more, I always worry for my family, and I dont think it matters if its even night time anymore.

why there is a 101 different support groups for offenders but only 1 for the victims of crime

That is spot on. The most true statement i've heard for a long time

and also why im looking for a job and house out of this hole

I must admit, it's something ive thought about, as at this moment, I see this county going down hill......fast

imo our law and penal system has gone marsh mallow  there is noithing in this country that deters people from committing crime its time that was turned around  and let the good honest people rule the streets not the scum and burberry clad idiots

I couldn't agree more.

Thompson and Venables were interviewed at my nick, the dreadful crime they committed - in my area.  There are officers knocking around my nick that were personally involved in the case.

I think the way they have been released and given new identities, new lives is an absolute disgrace. Agreed Does Denise Bulger get a new life? Or a chance to start again?
The offenders have ended up better off than thse they affected so inhumanely. Just goes to show that crime DOES pay, and all good has been lost

That said however, I would rather see them locked up for the rest of their lives than executed - being executed is a let-off for these people.  They should be locked in a cell 20 hours a day with no TV or Playstation, with nothing to do but mull over the heinous crime they have committed.

Agreed, Prison is just like Butlins these days. A prison should be a cell that has a bed and a toilet, with a window. They should get exercise and decent food still etc, but they should NOT have any luxuries, no matter how good they are being.

if we cant hang them then treat them as for what they are SCUM
no messin about  no mamby pamby ideas about how they had a poor upbringing  etc etc  bo*****s.  no stupid scap metal prison ships
take a life then expect the sentance to be harsh. rape a woman expect the same

Dont think thats right somehow, I dont see many people wanting to rape a rapist, nor should they

fiddle with a child then dont ask for any mercy

build a prison on some where like anthrax or easter  island and let them fend for themselves  and ROT IN HELL

Bit like the film No Escape?

couldn't agree more first one to fiddle with my kids gets death legal or not

See your point, and I think a lot of people will say the same....and I can see thier point

Please dont get me wrong here guys, IF there is definate 100% evidence that a person had comitted the crime, then i can see that there is an argument for the death penalty. I just dont think i could bring myself to acyually be the executioner. maybe that makes me a wuss, but i think that kev's answer is a good one, leave em in a prison to rot. if they want food, they can have the left overs from bins. Prison should be just that, i.e. a prison not a holiday camp. No way ahould they have playstations or TV's, i thought prison was a punishment?

I don't have kids yet, but when i do, i agree with the last post, anyone touches them or hurts them in any way will suffer.

I second that

Edited by Tyler, 20 November 2004 - 05:29 PM.

[mark8]

can someone explain to me why you can't excecute murderers but can drop bombs on people or allow people to starve to death.the problem with scrapping the death penalty is that it means the murderer is more important than the victim and that his/her life is somehow worth more and should be preserved,the idea of punishment and retribution has been lost

[Giraffe]

I favour bringing back the death penalty, where it can be proved a particulor person committed the crime.

I also think people who carry loaded guns should be given life sentences. Anyone who to carries a loaded gun, even if they do not intend to kill anyone, could potentially kill another person. These people sould be taken off our streets.

[dawn]

Ok my opinion to which i believe i am entitled.
i think that judicial system can be farce at times.
People commit crimes in my opinion because theyv know that the sentance they get given if it gts that far is not really going to be that much.
They get tv ,video, fags,, food, warm bed ,games rooms ,retraining, shall i go on.
Prison is a soft option in this country, we need to toughen up. I am not suggesting we breech the rules of human rights but if America can still have the death penalty!!!, and i know it is not in all states and i also know they have a high crime rate, them why can't we do something more to deter crime.
I do find it objectionable that my hard earned wages have to go towards keeping the prisoners comfy in jail.
As i said this is my personal opinion to which i am entitled and no one has to agree with it.

[RojanUK]

You people worry me.

How can you morally arrest a murderer for committing a crime and then murder the criminal yourself? Because let's be honest here: Capital punishment makes murderers out of the entire justice system and I mean the ENTIRE justice system. From the police officers to the judges to the government... all murderers. Why? Because you killed a fellow human being. Whether this person is the most heinous criminal of all or not is totally besides the point. You killed a human being. And therefore you will be just as bad as the criminal you've executed. There is NO difference between the criminal and the executioner. And therefore I believe that if the death penalty was brought back right after the execution of the murderer the police, judges, government ministers should all be executed for murder as well, because thats the law you've introduced. It's ridiculous. You can never say to a murderer he's broken the law if you are going to break the law in exactly the same way!

You CANNOT lower yourself to the criminals level. A crime can never be a punishment, because you cannot inforce the law if you're constantly breaking the law yourself.

[MaW]

Thank you Rojan. There are many arguments about certainty, whether it's actually a deterrent or not, and many other aspects of capital punishment, but with that one I don't think any of the others are necessary.

[Whopper MacBig]

You people worry me.

How can you morally arrest a murderer for committing a crime and then murder the criminal yourself? Because let's be honest here: Capital punishment makes murderers out of the entire justice system and I mean the ENTIRE justice system. From the police officers to the judges to the government... all murderers. Why? Because you killed a fellow human being. Whether this person is the most heinous criminal of all or not is totally besides the point. You killed a human being. And therefore you will be just as bad as the criminal you've executed. There is NO difference between the criminal and the executioner. And therefore I believe that if the death penalty was brought back right after the execution of the murderer the police, judges, government ministers should all be executed for murder as well, because thats the law you've introduced. It's ridiculous. You can never say to a murderer he's broken the law if you are going to break the law in exactly the same way!

You CANNOT lower yourself to the criminals level. A crime can never be a punishment, because you cannot inforce the law if you're constantly breaking the law yourself.

Mark8 summed it up quite nicely - we as a state already sanction the killing of others by developing sophisticated weapons, training people to apply deadly force, then bringing the two together and sending them off to war.

With all of that going on, I'm not going to get hung up on the fate of some scumbag that through his or her actions has shown themself to be inhuman.

I don't follow any of your arguments about "murder", "breaking the law" or applying a punishment that is in itself "a crime". If the death penalty was brought back then it would be a legitimate punishment provided for in law, i.e. none of the above.

[RojanUK]

I don't follow any of your arguments about "murder", "breaking the law" or applying a punishment that is in itself "a crime".  If the death penalty was brought back then it would be a legitimate punishment provided for in law, i.e. none of the above.

The death penalty IS murder. You are MURDERING a human being. And murder is definately against the law, last time I checked. A proviso under the law to legalise murder for the justice system is completely ridiculous. Murder is murder is murder. Simple as that. You cannot and even worse SHOULD NOT legalise murder for anyone; even if its only provided for in law for the government/law enforcement. But even if it was... how can you live with yourself knowing you are a murderer? Whether you get punished for it or not is not the point. You will be a murderer. No two ways about it. You have done exactly the same as the criminal you've punished. And that can NEVER be right.

BTW: in reaction to your point about armies: I'm against them too... If there weren't any armies in the world there wouldn't have been war. And war will NEVER solve anything. But that's a totally different discussion. People in war are not killed as punishment for killing somebody else, but purely because they are assumed to be the 'enemy' and for no other reason. With capital punishment the reasoning is totally different and the two can therefore not be compared.

Edited by RojanUK, 21 November 2004 - 11:48 PM.

[Tyler]

I am not suggesting we breech the rules of human rights

See the Human Rights people only seem to care about the Human Rights of the convicted, they NEVER seem to care about the rights of the victim.

The victim had thier human rights breached by another human being for no reason (Lets say Murder), and no one ever says how the guilty party commited a crime AND breached that persons human rights!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. I dont think we should bring the death penalty back (and it wont), but we need to be much much HARDER on the wrong doers.

Murder should = Life inprisonment (Which should = Never come out of prison)

[ITP]

I used to referee (basketball actually), but probably in the words of someone like Collina - "the strength of a penalty lies in it's certainty, not it's severity".

I do agree however that we need to be tougher with those that play the system and know that it's just a game with no deterrent. Unfortunately, IMHO, the CPS and the legal "bartering" that goes on completely negates the "certainty" of most penalties. e.g. -
Mr Offender actually commits about 8 different offences.
We (if we're lucky) maybe charge 2 or 3 (if not just bump it down to the one most serious - because we know CPS will just not bother with the rest anyway).
CPS then bump it down to 1. Maybe. If it's pretty much a cert.
Net result - chummy appears at Court (oh, if he doesn't get a Caution etc somewhere along the way) for just 1 offence.

One thing I think the USA does do properly is present ALL the offences to a Court - let them take all the aggravating circumstances into consideration - otherwise, why shouldn't chummy try to give false details, resist arrest, try to run off, assault Police etc.

Sorry for perhaps straying off topic. Point in relation to this topic is (was!) - it's not the capital punishment that's the deterrent, it's the getting caught.

Just my 2p worth.

[Whopper MacBig]

The death penalty IS murder. You are MURDERING a human being. And murder is definately against the law, last time I checked.  A proviso under the law to legalise murder for the justice system is completely ridiculous. Murder is murder is murder. Simple as that. You cannot and even worse SHOULD NOT legalise murder for anyone; even if its only provided for in law for the government/law enforcement. But even if it was... how can you live with yourself knowing you are a murderer? Whether you get punished for it or not is not the point. You will be a murderer. No two ways about it. You have done exactly the same as the criminal you've punished. And that can NEVER be right.

BTW: in reaction to your point about armies: I'm against them too... If there weren't any armies in the world there wouldn't have been war. And war will NEVER solve anything. But that's a totally different discussion. People in war are not killed as punishment for killing somebody else, but purely because they are assumed to be the 'enemy' and for no other reason. With capital punishment the reasoning is totally different and the two can therefore not be compared.

According to the Oxford English, murder is the unlawful killing of another. The key word there is unlawful. Like I said before, if the death penalty was reinstated then any killings under it would be lawful and therefore could not be considered "murder".

So, your post is sort of shooting off on one. :wink:

[Godfather]

Although I do agree that war is murder, surely that is for anothwr thread? How can we debate the death penalty and keep slipping back to Iraq? Although I am wondering wheter we should hand over all of our worst criminals to the extremists to play with........

What I find interesting is that we just can't get prisons right. If a prison sentance was a punishment, so when they eventually get out (or if as it should be in some cases) they are relived and never ever want to go back. Prisons can conform to every civil rights and human rights and this and that rights charter and still be harsh, it's just that we choose to be all soft and allow tellys, curtains, luxuries. Make them hardr and a real punishment, a deterrant even - hell theres an idea - and crime will fall as people will not be so keen to go inside. Some kids even enjoy going in as they get to see their mates and don't get hassle from mum or the job centre for not looking for work!

If prisons were not so lovely we would not even have to mention the death penalty - which incidentally, like it or not, we will never get back as there are just too many reasons against it.

[Whopper MacBig]

Although I do agree that war is murder, surely that is for anothwr thread?  How can we debate the death penalty and keep slipping back to Iraq?  Although I am wondering wheter we should hand over all of our worst criminals to the extremists to play with........

The point was relevant. Somebody said that capital punishment makes the state a killer, and it was pointed out that the state already sanctions killing by sending armies off to war.

Whether by rope or by bomb, at the end of the day somebody is dead and it was the state wot did it.

[Godfather]

The point was relevant.  Somebody said that capital punishment makes the state a killer, and it was pointed out that the state already sanctions killing by sending armies off to war.

Whether by rope or by bomb, at the end of the day somebody is dead and it was the state wot did it.

Agreed, but now the thread is an anti war thread......

[Whopper MacBig]

Agreed, but now the thread is an anti war thread......

Er, the only person to bring up the war today was you .........

If prisons were not so lovely we would not even have to mention the death penalty

And I'm afraid that scores very high on the nonsense scale. There are plenty examples both past and present of barbaric penal systems - none of them ever stopped people committing crimes punishable by death.

Most of the time that we had the death penalty in this country fell prior to penal reform - we still hung loads of people.

[Godfather]

And I'm afraid that scores very high on the nonsense scale.  There are plenty examples both past and present of barbaric penal systems - none of them ever stopped people committing crimes punishable by death. 

Most of the time that we had the death penalty in this country fell prior to penal reform - we still hung loads of people.

Ok, so awful conditions are not a deterrant, even barbaric ones don't stop crime, maybe they prevent it? And if not, why would the death penalty make a difference?

If it's not a deterrant then we are surely doing it for the satisfaction of the victim/victims family and friends or the rest of society. Is that good/right/fair?

[MattD]

I dont see how people can blindly think going from one extreme to another will work, whats wrong with a sentencing system that meets somewhere in the middle.

Community sentences are a brilliant idea- they force a criminal to give back directly to those who he/she has taken from or harmed, the problem with them as it stands is that these sentences arent applied correctly.

A young lad smashes the bus stop window and is caught and arrested. Imagine what would give you more satisfaction:

a) hes gets a paltry fine or a small term in a youth prison where he sits around all day
b) he has to spend a considerable amount of time cleaning graffiti of the walls of the estate

personally seeing him do b) would give me alot of satisfaction.

Im all for bringing back the death penalty but am reserved on its use- i dont feel it is a deterrent. I feel its use would be appropriate where the level of threat and offender poses to the public is so high that its the only way tomake sure they never offend again.

[DGP]

I am a bit worried about comments about putting a bullet in the head of two ten year old children who murdered.

I suppose that could say that the death penalty stops re-offending rates. But does anyone know the how many convicted murderers have been released to murder again? And how that figure compares to the number of people who would have been potentially wrongly executed.

In terms of 'effectiveness', I suppose that we need to compare outself to countries who use the death penalty. But other variables need to be factored in.

Yes, the US has a higher murder rate per capita and 38 states have the death penalty. Does that make it a deterrent?

But England has a lower murder rate, no death penalty but a SUBSTANTIALLY higher detection and conviction rate. If you murder someone in England then you do so with the knowedge that you will probably get caught.

I think that the government should re-evaluate the length of sentences for murder. They are considering lowering the tariff for those who pleas guilty early on. Whilst I am all for minimising the cost of the Criminal Justice System I am not for this. To some extent, if someone pleads guilty to murder less information will come to be in the public domain and I think that information should be released when a life is taken.

I think that the minimum term for murder should be 20 years, with a new offence of 1st degree murder created that carries a life sentence for the most severe. This would incorporate premeditated murders with aggravating circumsatnces.