27 replies to this topic

[Whopper MacBig]

So now we're at the stage where coalition forces are shooting unarmed, wounded Iraqis and insurgents are killing humanitarian aid workers.

And after the assault on Fallujah, tonight troops are diverting to Mosul to deal with an uprising there.

Meantime, back at home:

A Requiem Mass took place on Tuesday for Pte Scott McArdle in his home town of Glenrothes, Fife.

The 22-year-old was killed by a suicide bomber at a vehicle checkpoint near Falluja on 4 November.  Mourners at the service at St Paul's and St Mary's RC Church included his pregnant fiancee.

The Army said the funerals of the two other Fife soldiers killed in the same blast will also be held this week.

Source BBC


There is nothing positive that can be taken from any of this. The whole thing is just an unmitigated disaster that continues to go from bad to worse :sad:

[Kevinl03]

So now we're at the stage where coalition forces are shooting unarmed, wounded Iraqis and insurgents are killing humanitarian aid workers.

And after the assault on Fallujah, tonight troops are diverting to Mosul to deal with an uprising there.

Meantime, back at home:
Source BBC
There is nothing positive that can be taken from any of this.  The whole thing is just an unmitigated disaster that continues to go from bad to worse  :sad:

There are positives I'm sure, however these pale into significance as they are far outweighed by the negatives.

However, we are, are we not, in a position whreby we have no choice but to carry on?

[MoP IV]

However, we are, are we not, in a position whreby we have no choice but to carry on?

I'd say not. I think that the troops ought to pull out right now. OK, it'll leave people who have profited from the war a little vulnerable, but maybe that's no bad thing.

It ain't working. Stealing the oil hasn't been particularly successful because the cost of stealing it has led to an increase in oil prices globally (although the people paying the costs of stealing it and the people selling it are two entirely different groups, if you follow). The "war against terrorism" has just createfd terrorists who would probably never have thought of it had their family not been smeared as part of the 'civilian casualty' contribution.

[Kevinl03]

Surely though if we pull out right now the country will just degenerate into even greater anarchy and chaos?

[David]

I tend to agree with kevinl03. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the war, to pull out now would only show weakness. After all the strong words in the past (not letting terrorism win and all the rest) isn't that exactly what we will be saying?

[xs13]

if we arenot careful we will have another "vietnam" on our hands

[MattD]

We certainly seem to be being pulled deeper and deeper into the problem, i always thought that the reasons for going to war were a crock anyway.

I feel very sorry indeed for our soldiers- they are fighting a dirty war in a foreign land where the "liberated" populace are as much against them as the fighters.All the locals see is that since the "liberation" saddams soldiers with rilfes oppressing them have been replaced with our soldiers with rifles stopping them at check points and searching them

I think its a no win situation now we are there. If we pull out we will seem weak and will almost be admitting that we lied about the reasons for going to war in the first place, in the power vacuum that would follow (no-one can argue any other than the iraqi govt is a puppet one) iraq could easily become the haven for dissidents and terrorists we were told it was.

If we stay in iraq we will just get pulled further and further in committing more troops and money and getting nothign but body bags back for it.

On the balance in the short term pulling out is the best action, in the long term it could cost us dear.

[SWP1]

At the end of the day we all know we shouldn't have gone in there in the first place. But the forces have to finish what they started or the country will fall to ruin. If the armed forces pull out now the rebels would take a strong hold over the interim gov with their bullish tactics and frequent killings, the country would fall into a new dictatorship under that freak Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. The only thing left to do is rid the country of these fanatics and start from scratch. Look at neighboring arab states Qatar and Dubai. These are rich oil states with an economy second to none. Once the Iraqi people realise this and get behind the coalition troops the quicker the whole saga will end

[Sailor]

People, don't take this the wrong way, but sad as it is to hear that soldiers are dying, they all know the risks when they sign up.

The situation is not as bad the media makes it out to be. Do not be fooled by the newspapers and TV who love to sensationalize everything.

I watched a program about a month ago with some of the black watch soldiers. These boys want to go out there. They want to fight. In one of them, the reporter asked the soldier somethng along the lines of: "Are you scared of going into Fallujah?" and the soldier responded: "Well, it is what we are trained to do." the reporter then asked if they wanted to be back home before Christmas. The soldier said: "We have a job to do out there and yes of course we want to be home for Christmas but" and the reporter cut in: "So, you don't want to be in Iraq for Christmas". Next day, the headlines read: "Bring our boys back"

Obviously I am guessing here, but most of those boys and girls want to be out there. Otherwise why sign up in the first place?

The war is there and it is not going to go away. And I really do wish that the media would spend some time reporting all the positive things that the armed forces are managing to achieve in Iraq. See, how it's actually changing the lives of the majority for the better..

We cannot leave now.

[Spartacus]

I can't see how we can leave now.

Iraq would tear itself apart in a civil war.. famine would follow for certain.

Train their forces to the job for themselves.. and get out of dodge quickly. If we walked away now.. any future actions would be viewed with little credibility and a sign of weakness.. this may leave us open to attack.

I say this with a sister half way through Sandhurst.. and will be buying her desert wellies in 6 months time.

[Godfather]

Totally agree with Sailor and Bert here. Sailors points about the Soldiers wanting to go may or may not be right, but the fact is they decided to join the armed forces, and now they are doing the job they are paid to do. There is little chance the UK will be invaded and our brave forces will be called on to defend our shores from a major enemy, it has been the case for sometime that our forces are deployed all over the World in all sorts of situations, some peacekeeping with or without the UN, some to allegedly right wrong. Ther eis too much about a british soldier killed here or an American soldier killed there, what about the poor innocent Iraqi's - they are not all bad. No-one feels sorry for them, the papers don't show their plight, or how they have lost everything in a bombing raid to find a few more terrorists. Yes it has to be done, but who is going to help these people rebuild their lives?

More Iraqi people have died and been wounded than UK or US soldiers, many many many more. They probably want this over a lot more than any of us do, but to stop now would be wrong on so many levels. Politically it would be showing that terrorism can win, plus the job we started (wrongly or rightly, although I suspect wrongly) needs to be completed. Lastly, the Iraqi people need the armed forces there for now, until the country can look after itself. The people are weak and vulnerable, and as was pointed out the power vacuum would be a dangerous thing. I hate the whole thing, but it's not over yet.

The horrible sights of the US Marine killing a wounded Iraqi are disgusting, part of me hopes he is charged with murder, part of me hopes he is taken home and helped with counselling - apparantly a few days before he suffered serious facial injuries from a car bomb - the guy is going to be scared and angry, I would be.

It is all a terrible mess, but lets not forget it is our mess and we created it for whatever reason, the least we can do is clean up before we go, and try and leave the country with a bit of infrastructure and some dignity.

[Whopper MacBig]

So it was wrong to go in the first place but it's now right to stay ......

It has always been and continues to be the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time. Every day we stay there we dig a deeper hole for ourselves killing more Iraqis and creating more martyrs. It's too simple to say "we should stay and finish the job" - the fact is we're making it worse by the hour!!! The objective, in as much as there ever was an objective, is quite clearly not achievable.

There is no clean and tidy exit from this. None. Now that we've started it the killing and mayhem will go on and on. Of course Iraqis are pig sick of it all, but look at how "insurgents" are responding - rather than "see sense" and welcome the "benevolent coalition peacekeepers" they are driving cars full of explosives at soldiers in suicide attacks.

It's all very well saying "we need to see it through", but at least qualify that with a realistic assessment of what the endgame might be. If you conclude (and I think it's pretty safe to do so) that there really is no palatable end to this, then the only conclusion we can reach is that we should withdraw now.

I suspect that the only reason we are not withdrawing is to save political face .........

[crunchybits]

Before everyone castigates the Marine who shot an Iraqi insurgent 'fakin dead'

Bear in mind he was moving through what is still a battlefield, he had been wounded the day before by an Iraqi insurgent feigning dead, one of his platoon had been killed that morning by a booby trapped body and the position had been reoccupied that morning by insurgents and another firefight with them had taken place prior to the Marines arrival at the scene.

He appeared that to me he was doing his job - "to engage the enemy with fire and manuver and kill them". It should be noted that the other wounded Iraqi insurgent who was not playing possum and had his hands visible was not shot. It is a war the Marines are fighting there - big boys rules apply

[YazzyB]

crunchy bits the iraqi's are not the first to "booby trap" body's
the viet cong the germans and more close to home the PIRA would put a grenade under a body in hope that a couple of british squaddies may get a fatal wound when they flipped the body over.
withthat in mind ive never seen a report on british tv of a squaddie in northern ireland shooting what is believed as a faking dead terrorist with the excuse that well my opo got killed yesterday!!!!! When it comes to war the usa are what they are know as best COWBOYS. ###### happens but we stay proffesional thats what makes our soliders out shine the rest especialy the shower of ###### that the americans call thier marine corps who most couldnt hit a barn door if they were stood in front of it.
why we are helping bush and his cronies steal the oil and living from another country i dont know
the world is no safer now than it was post 9/11 bush blair and his cronies certainly put pay to that idea

we should join the stance against this war with france and germany bush wants iran next???????? you can see it coming. there will be nothing left of us
phase 2 call up is already being considered if not in place . wee young specials if phase 3 gets here chuck your blues in for a nice sandy coloured uniform see how you praise the efforts and wishes of your government then.

[DGP]

I agree that Saddam had to go. But it would have been so easy to do it by due process and engaging other countries in the process.

But, no- the Americans rush in like a bull in a China shop.

As far as I am concerned it is an illegal war. Yes, Saddam has gone and that is great. But the purpose of that was for the benefit of the Iraqi people. If the war has no integrity then the people will not accept it and will rebel against forces.

It was understandable at the time that Tony Blair wanted to be close the US so that he could try to influence their policies. But, I think that this was naive and flawed. Blair should have pushed more for a better process to be put in place as a perquisite of war. If we are honest, war would have been inevitable but troops would have been better received if it wasn't so sudden.

We cannot pull out now. We owe it to the Iraqi people to help them re-build their country. I just think that the British troops role should be more of peace keepers and helping the Iraqi people and let the Americans do the fighting and clear up their mess.

The US clearly had the upper hand after September 11th. However, their actions on the world stage have severely undermined my sympathy for them and their behaviour will be the cause of them being further recipients of terrorism. In no way whatsoever can it justify such actions. But I have little sympathy for them as a collective nation and doubt I will in future attacks on them because they could have been averted, but considerable sympathy for victims and their families.

Its frustrating that we are left picking up the actions of a war criminal and our leader was too spineless to challenge him and stop him of his imperial crusade. the threat of terrorism is far worse than it ever was and we are even more likely to be targets <CLAP, CLAP, CLAP>

[Howzat]

Bush has no brain. America/USE/UK forces being there is a waste of time. Ok, Saddam is gone, but why are they still threre, killing innocent Iraqis'?

[Godfather]

Bush has no brain. America/USE/UK forces being there is a waste of time. Ok, Saddam is gone, but why are they still threre, killing innocent Iraqis'?

Maybe because just picking up the kit and leaving would harm more people than it would save? Maybe it wouldn't, but there is a massive chance that the power vacuum would be filled by people with their own agendas, which I bet would not include the safety, welfare and wellbeing of the population of Iraq.

And yes Whopper, it's a nightmare situation and very wrong - we should not be there but now we are we can't just go.

DGP - do you really believe we are more at risk from terrorists? That is not meant as a rude question, just an honest one. Personally, I have not seen or heard any sign of terrorist activity for quite some time, only the garbage churned out by politicians about a 'global war on terror', I believe there is a massive amount of propoganda all helping to justify some wrong decisions - I recon they are just keeping us on our toes so we believe we are at risk.

[Whopper MacBig]

Maybe because just picking up the kit and leaving would harm more people than it would save? 

Over 100,000 Iraqis have died since we invaded. Anybody like to hazard a guess as to how many more will die if we stay another 12/24/36 months?

I've no doubt that withdrawing would be bad news, but in terms of body count I think a short sharp civil war would ultimately mean fewer fatalities than a prolonged occupation.

Sad that it comes down to weighing up the least worse option given the objectives that were being touted when this first kicked off.

[Kevinl03]

Over 100,000 Iraqis have died since we invaded.  Anybody like to hazard a guess as to how many more will die if we stay another 12/24/36 months?   

Similary, would anybody like to hazard a guess as to how, over the next twelve months, the death count if we stay would compare to the death count if we left tomorrow?

Perhaps we were too quick to go to war. Perhaps we went about it the wrong way. Perhaps we were ill equipped and didn't plan for the aftermath.

However you look at it, the fact remains that we simply cannot leave Iraq as it is now, as we will become responsible for even more deaths than if we stay, due to the (increased) instability and anarchy that we would leave behind.

The reason that we cannot leave is not about saving political face because we don't want to be seen to retreat, it is about saving lives and preserving what little order may remain in Iraq, and building on it.

At least I'd like to think that is how the UK and US Governments approach the situation, but I doubt it.....

[panda plodder]

crunchy bits the iraqi's are not the first to "booby trap" body's
the viet cong the germans and more close to home the PIRA  would put a grenade under a body in hope that a couple of british squaddies may get a fatal wound when they flipped the body over.
  withthat in mind ive never seen a report on british tv of a squaddie in northern ireland  shooting what is believed as a faking dead terrorist with the excuse that well my opo got killed yesterday!!!!! When it comes to war the usa are what they are know as best COWBOYS. ###### happens  but we stay proffesional thats what makes our soliders out shine the rest  especialy the shower of ###### that the americans call thier marine corps who most couldnt hit a barn door if they were stood in front of it.

Sorry? but who did you say you served with? funny how I heard this week a RM Falkland's vet say he would have done the same thing and slotted him....

Despite the the training for searching bodies not sure I would want to be lying (to check a body you have to kinda lay on top and then roll it over slighty - in theory you should escape any blast but who wants to check if the theory is correct) - on top if a body when a WP Grenade goes off. So what gets taught @ Warminster these days then?

How can you use Northern Ireland as an example of War? it never was and stating that it was only gives the terrorist's military validity (and British Squaddies have run amok whilst serving in the province).

War isn't pretty it isn't cool the harsh reality is something civvies can't comprehend, what the hell was a journalist doing with them during FIBUA ops anyway? (I hate the trendy "Kate Adie's" of journalism who have to be @ the unpleasant end to prove some sort of Kudos in what they do). You know they are just waiting to say "what happens next is too awrful to show"

Back in 1991 the authorities wouldn't release footage of the aftermath of the Basra Highway operation because it was so gory and would have been to contreversial @ the time (severly burnt bodies just still sitting in/or hanging from cars, tanks (an edited version was shown a few years ago but it still didn't show the nasty bits - incidentally I saw the unedited version in 1993 @ Chichester <not sure how the Training Centre got hold of a copy of the video>)

I didn't hear many people complain when the JNA went storming house to house in Mostar in the early 90's.

The biggest problem today is the lily livered political crassness of New Labour which wants to promote our troops as being seen handing out bags of Food, and can't get a handle on what armed conflict means, god help the poor sod that shoots anyone!

In 1945 Germany was put through De-nazisfication which by and large was successful, today all the politicians can come up with is 'Win hearts and minds' whilst ignoring the fact that there isn't one enemy but several different groups (Pro- Saddam Bathist's, Mercenaries, Bin Laden Cronies and all) who are able to turn and control local populations.

[Godfather]

Sad that it comes down to weighing up the least worse option given the objectives that were being touted when this first kicked off.

Isn't it. Kind of the lesser of two evils decision.

I think leaving to allow a civil war is wrong, the main reason being that you can't beging to guess how long a civil war would last. Eventually after years of fighting troops would again be sent in to help reach peace and we are back to square one.

Not really sure how the people who instigated all of this sleep at night - I don't just mean Blair and Bush, I mean the people who took the decision to push the point of the situation, like the CIA and other inteligence services.

[Whopper MacBig]

It's (un)official - we're as bad as they are .......

The International Committee of the Red Cross has condemned what it calls the "utter contempt for humanity" shown by all sides in the fighting in Iraq.

Source BBC


Officially of course, we are continuing to introduce democracy and harmony to the grateful people of Iraq.

[Godfather]

It's (un)official - we're as bad as they are .......
Source BBC
Officially of course, we are continuing to introduce democracy and harmony to the grateful people of Iraq.

Shame no-one thought to ask them if they would like democracy first.....

[Whopper MacBig]

Shame no-one thought to ask them if they would like democracy first.....

Yes ... but in order to ask .... need democracry ..... oh never mind. Yes, very clever. :grin:

[Tyler]

A little :offtopic: but has anyone seen Fahrenheit 9/11, with Michael Moore?

Whats your views on the Iraqi war before watching it?

And your views on the Iraqi war after watching it?

Edited by Tyler, 20 November 2004 - 05:31 PM.