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Women drivers' insurance - Anti-discrimination


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#1 The Pheonix

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 10:36 PM

Women drivers may have to pay more for car insurance if Europe extends sex discrimination legislation, a House of Lords committee has warned.
The European Commission (EC) wants to extend sex discrimination legislation to cover goods and services.

The EC proposal would mean firms could no longer use gender to assess premiums for insurance, pensions and annuities.

The House of Lords committee said younger men had far worse accidents and conviction records, so should pay more.

The committee said the EC needed to rethink the impact of its proposals.

'Anomalies'

EU ministers are due to discuss a draft directive which proposes to ban sex discrimination in the supply of goods and services at a meeting in Brussels on 4 October.


When companies set premiums for newly-qualified drivers with no track record, gender matters
Lord Williamson of Horton, chairman of the inquiry

Home Office statistics quoted in the Lords' report show that men consistently committed more than 85% of serious motoring offences, including 97% of dangerous driving offences.

"As they stand, the proposals will lead to anomalies and inconsistencies," said the Chairman of the Inquiry, Lord Williamson of Horton.

"In time, gender can and should be taken out of most calculations for car insurance premiums. But when companies set premiums for newly-qualified drivers with no track record, gender matters."

Annuity concerns

Lord Williamson also said that the commission must take into consideration the UK annuity market, the biggest in Europe.

In contrast to car premiums, it is men who could lose out if gender considerations were scrapped in the pricing of annuities - an income in retirement.

This is because men, generally, have a lower life expectancy than women, a fact which means they receive more generous payments.

This could have a knock-on effect on female incomes, Lord Williamson said, as many women depend on the annuities of male breadwinners.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.u...ess/3676476.stm

Published: 2004/09/21 23:06:41 GMT

© BBC MMIV


I guess this makes sense. I'm male, surely the fact that I have to pay more for my insurance because I am male is based on stereotyping, regardless of any "statistics" that prove that males are more likely to be involved in accidents/dangerous driving. It doesn't mean that *I* as a male will be more likely to have an accident than *my* girlfriend - so why should our premiums reflect this assumption?

This whole gender insurance stuff isn't very PC is it... Especially when you look in the paper and see "Special rates for woman drivers" or "We insure women from 17 years old and men from 21 years old" Ah....so age and sex discrimination now...? :whistle:

#2 zulu

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 09:07 AM

It annoys the hell out of me too but I think insurance companies are the work of the devil anyway. I honestly believe that everyone should be given an unbiased premium until they have an accident, then discriminate against them. Gender and age should have nowt to do with it until a claim. How's this for stupid and unfair:

My dad and I own identical motorbikes - Honda VFR 750cc. I have been riding for a year with (touch wood) no accidents or claims. My dad has been riding for 6 months and was in an accident (not his fault) after his first 6 weeks and wrote a bike off. My renewal is £600 for TPFT cover. My dads is £560 fully comp. Work that one out. Dumbass insurance people/minions of the devil.

#3 r_buxton

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 10:18 AM

The House of Lords committee said younger men had far worse accidents and conviction records, so should pay more


Yeah - that may be true but it doesnt mean that I have a worse accident record that other women so why do i have to pay more? Im sure you could look at figures and say that "Brunettes have the most accidents, lets charge all brunettes more"

Its nonesense and discriminatory.

#4 PCmonkey

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 11:02 AM

Can we extend this to nightclubs that only charge men to go in?

#5 lily

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 11:41 AM

Trying not to go too far off topic but....

One insurance company told me that although my recent accident wasn't my fault (someone reversed into the side of my car whilst I was waiting at a pedestrian crossing), I could be penalised because statistics show that I am now more likely to have an accident in the same year which will be my fault. That again is nonsense.

#6 Hades

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 12:25 PM

Can we extend this to nightclubs that only charge men to go in?

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That *really* annoys me.

So much so, infact, that I refuse to go to Long Island Iced Tea bar in the west end anymore, even though i used to be a big fan of the cocktails and used to spend a fortune... They told me and two mates that it was full, then turned to the two girls behind us and let them straight in! so, i asked what he was letting them in for ifit was full and he said "only birds or blokes with birds mate - come back some other time".... Bloody cheek!

#7 PCmonkey

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 12:32 PM

Last night they let me in, but I had to pay wheres my friends didn't. Was worth it though.

#8 karmapolice

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 01:22 PM

</shrugs>

It's a commercial company who are in the business of doing business.

You wouldn't say to Agent Provocateur that they should start selling men's underwear, as it's discriminatory to only sell knickers and bras.

Insurance works on the basis of identifying groups and individuals to market particular products to, and they get priced on that basis accordingly. If you are in a lower risk group, you get cheaper insurance, for a whole myriad of underwriting criteria.

Gender is a reasonable underwriting criteria to use, ditto postal-code rating, type of vehicle etc.

Oh, and on the subject of unbiased premium, your policies would cost a considerable amount more than they do now if that were applied. Further details available on request.

#9 Sailor

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Posted 18 October 2004 - 09:37 PM

</shrugs>

It's a commercial company who are in the business of doing business.

You wouldn't say to Agent Provocateur that they should start selling men's underwear, as it's discriminatory to only sell knickers and bras.


Nice try but wrong analogy. If I went to Agent Provocateur and they charged me more to buy or wouldn't let me buy as I'm male, then I would tell them they are discriminating.

Insurance works on the basis of identifying groups and individuals to market particular products to, and they get priced on that basis accordingly. If you are in a lower risk group, you get cheaper insurance, for a whole myriad of underwriting criteria.

Gender is a reasonable underwriting criteria to use, ditto postal-code rating, type of vehicle etc.

Oh, and on the subject of unbiased premium, your policies would cost a considerable amount more than they do now if that were applied. Further details available on request.

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Insurance business is an oligopoly, not because there's few companies who do it (how many underwriters are there really?) but because it's state enforced. And because it's state enforced, they can get away with a lot.

Why is it OK take the sex of a person into consideration but not their sexuality? If an insurance company started charging more for lesbians and less for gays, then there would be an outcry.

What does my profession have to do with my car driving abilities?

The current insurance system is wrong, because it's based on the person. In other countries, the car is insured, not the driver. If your car is more expensive, then it's dearer to insure as the repair costs are likely to be more. If your car is cheap but easy to nick, then your insurance is still high. That modelling is fair, non-discriminatory and would lead to a more competitive market, as the modelling would be simpler.

#10 Mike Tango

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Posted 19 October 2004 - 11:35 AM

The current insurance system is wrong, because it's based on the person.  In other countries, the car is insured, not the driver.  If your car is more expensive, then it's dearer to insure as the repair costs are likely to be more. If your car is cheap but easy to nick, then your insurance is still high.  That modelling is fair, non-discriminatory and would lead to a more competitive market, as the modelling would be simpler.

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I can't see where the discrimination is. Insurers are looking at risk, how likely are you to:

a) smash your car up?
b) get it nicked?

So the risk factors for evaluation are:

a) age and gender factors according to statistics
b) area you keep the car, is it garaged, alarmed etc.

There are many more risks and risk factors, but these illustrate the point. The statistics are compiled from factual info, including that compiled by Police services, on who is most likely to have an accident and why. I don't like it either, but I can't see a fairer way of doing it.

#11 Sailor

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Posted 19 October 2004 - 01:54 PM

Car insurers look at the following in making a decision on your insurance premium:

.Level of insurance required
.Who will be driving your car
.The age of the driver(s) to be insured
.Postcode
.Amount of ‘no claims’
.Claim and convictions details for all drivers to be covered
.Occupation
.Sex and marital status
.The length of time you’ve had a full UK driving licence
.Your profession
.Start date of insurance cover
.Date of vehicle purchase
.The age of the vehicle
.Engine capacity
.Engine type
.Vehicle registration number
.Vehicle make and model
.Safety and security features
.Expected annual mileage
.Where the car will kept
.Type of use

Source: http://www.motor-ins.../calculated.asp

Now, someone please explain to me why my profession or my marital status has anything to do with my likelihood of crashing a car? You may say that my profession might be a travelling salesman. Well, that might be the case, but surely this is covered by the expected annual mileage. I'm telling the insurance company that I'm doing 12,000 miles, and it shouldn't matter to them what I do for living.. The fact that I'm not married. Does tha mean that I'm more likely to have an accident driving around trying to get married or does it matter that I might have 3 children in the back of the car who are screaming and distracting me. (As far as I know, it's cheaper if you are married by the way, which makes no sense).

The fact that I've claimed in the past does not mean that I'm going to have another accident either.

Another issue is how claims are dealt with. Insurance companies are quick to cancel a cover (mine was cancelled because due to my card being compromised at a cash point, I had to get a new one and forgot to tell my insurance company that. The first time they reminded was when I got a registered post from them, saying that my insurance with them was cancelled), but they are not very quick to resolve disputes. I would love to find out how much time they spend on 'investigating' claims and how much time they take to decide that it'll be a 50/50 split, further upping the premium on a driver who could have been innocent.

Also, I do a lot of driving on the road, and I find that some female drivers are more aggresive on the road, especially towards bikers. I have no proof of this other than personal experience. But, I did find this interesing article:

http://www.guardian....1326606,00.html

An example of the unfairness of the price:

Diamond Insurance quotes a 19-year-old woman driving a 2003 Ford Fiesta in London £1,438 as opposed to £2,263 for a man of the same age.

Source: http://news.ft.com/c...000e2511c8.html

Also, the Consumers Association is also backing the gender equality directive, but are pushing for further research:

Extract of Consumers' Association evidence prepared and submitted to House of Lords European Union Committee. CA recommended further research should include:

. evaluation of the actual relevance of gender when setting premiums. It is not clear whether gender is as important when predicting life expectancy as sometimes claimed by the industry. While the headline figures point to a large difference in life expectancy between men and women, the underlying picture is more complex (see case study below).

. an evaluation of the aggregate position of women in insurance markets ie. analysing the full range of products affected to weigh up the overall position of women.

. the degree to which gender based pricing exacerbates detriment for women eg. women earn less throughout their working lives and face worse annuity rates on retirement.

. the potential as well as existing detriment women face as a result of gender based pricing. As a result of the increasing transfer of risk and responsibility from state/ employers this should focus on the combined effect of greater marketisation of core welfare goods and gender based risk pricing on women. This should assess socio-economic factors such as trends in household composition, incomes, etc.

. an assessment of practices in other member states. Certain other countries operate insurance on mutual basis where risks are levelled out. It is not clear whether this disadvantages insurers to any real extent.

. consumer attitudes to equalising insurance rates. Are consumers in favour, would this affect levels of provision for core needs (pensions etc).

. potential impact on the underwriting process (given that the commission proposes an 8 year transition period after imposition of the directive).

. potential impact on competition, choice and value in the UK insurance market. Would this affect real innovation? Conversely, could this lead to more transparency and simplicity and therefore greater consumer influence and effective competition from the consumer perspective.

. to what extent is insurance a zero sum game ie. would the gains by one set of consumers be offset by the losses of another set? Or would the changes lead to a positive or negative overall impact on consumer welfare.

. the analysis should segment the market to establish which groups gain and by how much eg. in the annuities market would a small number of women gain substantially with a large number of men losing out by a small amount?

. impact on pensioner households. The study should evaluate the insurance industry argument that because more men than women receive annuities a larger number of households would lose than gain.

Source: http://www.which.net...erequality.html

According to some research done, Capricorns are least likely to have an accident. So, why aren't the inurers taking that into consideration as well? (I'm a capricorn!)

The study is based on 160,000 car accident insurance claims over the last three years. The full list, starting with the most accident-prone star sign, is as follows: Gemini, Taurus, Pisces, Virgo, Cancer, Aquarius, Aries, Leo, Libra, Sagittarius, Scorpio, Capricorn.

Source: http://www.nickcampion.com

Let's talk about Saga. They insure older people who they say are more responsible, hence the lower premiums for over 50's. Well, I had an accident about two years ago on my motorcycle. I was coming out of a petrol station, on the A3 Texaco southbound garage near Roehampton. The car infront of me, joined the A3, and I rode my motorcycle until the edge of the petrol station, stopped and looked to my right to see when I could join in. I was hit from behind and pushed onto the A3. The older gentleman said that he hadn't seen me and thought I'd gone. Well, if it wasn't for the young eagle eyes and quick reflexes of two cars who managed to stop on the A3 before running me over, the relatively cheap claim made by me against the older gentleman could have been a lot more.. I'm sorry, but statistics don't mean a single thing when it effects you in a negative way. Statistics say that it's safer to travel on a plane, rather than a car. Well, tell that to the plane crash victims.

Anyways, I probably haven't proven anything. But, my point is this. We cannot use statistics for everything and that kind of modelling leaves a lot of people disadvantaged. Insure my car, not what you think I'm statistically 'proven' to do.

#12 Godfather

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Posted 20 October 2004 - 02:43 PM

I agree with what you say Sailor, but lets say we all pay insurance as an average of the total (add together every premium today, and divide it by the number of people who want insurance). Later in life as you 'statistically' become a better driver and cheaper to insure your premium will still be over inflated due to the other peoples claims. They have to work it out somehow, and ok you might not have accidents, but others in your age group might well do and are therefore not helping you. Not fair, but thats life I guess!

I do agree that older people are not as safe as they like to think though, but I guess in time premiums will adjust to show this - insurance companies are not going to let them get away with it are they!

#13 Top Cat

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Posted 21 October 2004 - 02:36 PM

Insurence premiums should quite rightly be quotable based on the statistical risk.
Theer is usually still enough disagreement on risk to make shopping around profitable.

However, on the same basis, women must accept smaller occupational pensions, as they live longer and, without a smaller pension, would end up getting more back, on average, for their money...