48 replies to this topic

[Moxnil]

You come across two people arguing in the streets. Its very heated. One tries punching the other, the other dodges and then restrains him. Your about 5-10 seconds away and you started running in as soon as you saw the punch thrown. Would you arrest both men, only one, and why/why not?

[Alex_101]

I would consider both in for affray but then it depends on how bad the conduct of the second person was.

[Rob90]

You come across two people arguing in the streets. Its very heated. One tries punching the other, the other dodges and then restrains him. Your about 5-10 seconds away and you started running in as soon as you saw the punch thrown. Would you arrest both men, only one, and why/why not?

Why is arresting someone going to be your first thought, unless they are brawling and will not stop - most police officers who have policed night time economy/public order type scenarios will tell you that there are lots of incidents which do not result in anyone being arrested; if no complaints are forthcoming from either party, then very often (in the absence of any aggravating factors - serious injuries etc) both parties are dealt with by other means. Obviously there are equally plenty of occasions where this is not the appropriate action to take, and in the absence of a complaint, then you may wish to consider the offence of affray, contrary to s.3 Public Order Act 1986. The long and the short of it, in order to progress an offence of assault you need some form of victim; if it's a case of 6 of one and half a dozen of another from either party, then you are unlikely to get a complaint, and ergo, assault may not be the offence to consider.

Arresting people is not the answer to every offence that is committed, my first thought in that scenario would be putting a stop to whatever violence is going on, making sure that everyone is ok and not in need of medical attention, then making sure that any offenders do not make off from the scene. Do not forget that preserving life is your first duty to the public; prevention of crime is always secondary.

[General Purpose]

Rob90: It appears most only have a "It didn't happen" or a "Right, nick'em" attitude on this forum.

Split both parties up, request another patrol if single crewed. Caution both parties, contemp interview them. See what my crew mate's detained person says. Ask if either want to press charges, if not: split them up, send them both up and send them on their way and get CCTV to monitor.

[Moxnil]

What happens if the first person (the person who restrains them) claims self-defence?

Do they get arrested?

[General Purpose]

What happens if the first person (the person who restrains them) claims self-defence?

Do they get arrested?

Don't need to arrest if it's calmed down. Street bail, invite in for an interview.... Arrest is NOT the only option!

If he's claiming self defence then he'll need to make a statement about it, which will be done when the heat of the moment has gone.

[Moxnil]

I'm asking because I wondered what happens to someone acting in self defence when the police are literally seconds away.

[General Purpose]

I'm asking because I wondered what happens to someone acting in self defence when the police are literally seconds away.

I am assuming you're not job, then.

It makes absolutely NO difference at all. It's the same as if the Police are 10 minutes away.

[Moxnil]

I am assuming you're not job, then.

It makes absolutely NO difference at all. It's the same as if the Police are 10 minutes away.

Nope I'm a MOP.

So is it possible that the person defending themselves from the assault would actually get arrested for that?

Edited by Moxnil, 06 August 2012 - 01:19 AM.

[Übèrnamè]

Remind myself that common assault is a summary only offence and that I have discretion.

[Judge Dread]

Nope I'm a MOP.

So is it possible that the person defending themselves from the assault would actually get arrested for that?

Yes that would be possible if it didn't look clear at the time and it was still kicking off, you'd most likely be coming in for s 3. Arrest does not equal conviction though!

[Moxnil]

I wasn't sure. If it is obvious, I'm guessing it would be more of a "We're here, let us handle him now"? But if it's not obvious, the person acting in self-defence is going to be inconvenienced quite a bit. Supposing the incident happened in a CCTV blind area, and all you have is a couple of passers by vaguely describing a "fight" (Self-defence can often look like you are the aggressor), what would then happen to a) the attacker, and b) the guy acting in self-defence?

[General Purpose]

If they had to be arrested then they'll have their chance to speak in interview.

[Moxnil]

If they had to be arrested then they'll have their chance to speak in interview.

Presumably it would be a case of "He was the attacker", No I wasn't, you attacked me". With the only other evidence being a couple of people saying "Oh ye that looked like a fight", what's the most likely outcome for a) the attacker, and b) the guy defending himself?

Edited by Moxnil, 06 August 2012 - 09:55 AM.

[SkinSte]

Victims make complaints of being assaulted. Witnesses do not. If no one is making a complaint then no one will be getting dealt with.

Claiming self defence is exactly that, a defence to assault. It does not negate the fact that an assault took place so people could be investigated as such.

[Moxnil]

Victims make complaints of being assaulted. Witnesses do not. If no one is making a complaint then no one will be getting dealt with.

Claiming self defence is exactly that, a defence to assault. It does not negate the fact that an assault took place so people could be investigated as such.

So what is likely to happen in the scenario described i.e you arrive and see one person throw a punch, and then the other person restraining them, with a couple of witnesses saying it looked like a fight but they don't know who started it / assume it was both ways, no CCTV?

[General Purpose]

Ask the alleged offenders and alleged victim?

[SCBravo]

So what is likely to happen in the scenario described i.e you arrive and see one person throw a punch, and then the other person restraining them, with a couple of witnesses saying it looked like a fight but they don't know who started it / assume it was both ways, no CCTV?

Talk to them and ask what happened? If neither want to make a complaint then no point going down the assault route. If both want to make a complaint then take details and arrange for interviews, assuming they go separate ways and leave each other alone afterwards that is.

If alcohol is involved then can S27 direction to leave could be used too, usually makes idiots leave each other alone and go home.

[Moxnil]

Talk to them and ask what happened? If neither want to make a complaint then no point going down the assault route. If both want to make a complaint then take details and arrange for interviews, assuming they go separate ways and leave each other alone afterwards that is.

If alcohol is involved then can S27 direction to leave could be used too, usually makes idiots leave each other alone and go home.

Assuming the guy defending himself wants to complain about the assault, and the person who committed the assault tries making a counter-allegation to get himself off the hook. Basically both parties want to take things further, there's no CCTV, and the only witnesses you can find don't give very specific details just "Oh it looked like they were both fighting, no idea who made the first move".

Edited by Moxnil, 06 August 2012 - 11:50 AM.

[SCBravo]

Assuming the guy defending himself wants to complain about the assault, and the person who committed the assault tries making a counter-allegation to get himself off the hook. Basically both parties want to take things further, there's no CCTV, and the only witnesses you can find don't give very specific details just "Oh it looked like they were both fighting, no idea who made the first move".

If both make allegations of assault then you would have to interview and investigate, as with any offence, and hopefully the truth will out. As with any report, if someone makes an allegation it has to be investigated.

[Moxnil]

If both make allegations of assault then you would have to interview and investigate, as with any offence, and hopefully the truth will out. As with any report, if someone makes an allegation it has to be investigated.

So basically the guy defending himself is going to be as inconvenienced just as much as the guy who assaulted him?

I ask because, if I was being assaulted and was defending myself, I'd expect the officers in the scenario to assist me in restraining the attacker, not turn round and slap cuffs on me.

[adslegend]

If both make allegations of assault then you would have to interview and investigate, as with any offence, and hopefully the truth will out. As with any report, if someone makes an allegation it has to be investigated.

It's not quite as rigid as that. You make it sound like we have to investigate all allegations to the nth degree and interviewing everyone under caution - sometimes my investigation will simply be a quick chat with people.

Using a fairly real example - I've lost count how many times I've had some prat thrown out of a pub or club who tells me they've been assaulted. Most of the time it can be finalised there and then by viewing the CCTV and/or having a quick chat to anyone else who was present. The 'suspect' does not necessarily have to be interviewed.

So basically the guy defending himself is going to be as inconvenienced just as much as the guy who assaulted him?

I ask because, if I was being assaulted and was defending myself, I'd expect the officers in the scenario to atssist me in restraining the attacker, not turn round and slap cuffs on me.

No not necessarily, see above.

Edited by adslegend, 06 August 2012 - 12:14 PM.

[Moxnil]

It's not quite as rigid as that. You make it sound like we have to investigate all allegations to the nth degree and interviewing everyone under caution - sometimes my investigation will simply be a quick chat with people.



No not necessarily, see above.

I'm wondering more what would happen in the scenario, not every single allegation.

[adslegend]

Every situation is different so it's impossible to say.

However, if I was attending and believed someone was acting in self-defence, I certainly would not be arresting them unless they'd committed other offences.

In any case, this is notwithstanding the fact that from my perspective if you believed someone was acting in self-defence (and thus, believed they were acting lawfully) I'd struggle to argue how you can also then reasonably suspect that they were acting unlawfully, and if you don't suspect an offence you don't have a power of arrest

Edited by adslegend, 06 August 2012 - 12:42 PM.

[Han Solo]

I'd be requesting another unit if I was single crewed, have a chat with both of the persons and find out what happened - if there is no complaint coming from either party (which from my experiences is usually quite difficult to come by), then I would be sending the IP one way and the "offender" the other way, and if it was on a Friday / Saturday night I would be asking our CCTV operator to keep an eye on them and make sure they dont end up fighting again.

If there is a complaint from either then it would have to be investigated fully to ascertain if an offence has been committed.

Arrest for me would really depend if there was still a necessity to do so when I arrived, although having been in situations like this before someone has been arrested for either D&D or Section 5 Public Order, most of the time though its just people being sent on their merry way to either continue enjoying their evening or being told to go home.