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Met Police - PDA's for Fixed Penalty Endorsements


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#1 support

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 06:48 PM

I was with a colleague in the car when my colleagues mobile phone started to ring, unfortunately my colleague picked up the call as the caller was a police officer he was expecting a call from in connection with an enquiry, suddenly to our surprise the vehicle behind us turned on blue lights and we were signalled to stop (unmarked traffic car).

We stopped and got out the car and spoke to the officer who was a traffic police officer, immediately the officer uttered the usual caution.

My colleague was then issued with a £60 3 points fixed penalty ticket, the officer issuing the ticket used a pda and as part of the process the officer insisted on taking a photograph of my colleague using the pda device for issuing the ticket.

The question I have is, in respect of the photograph does anyone know under what legislation is the officer empowered to require a MoP's photograph to submit to allowing the officer to take his or her image ?

Where I work at the moment police officers do not have access to pda's routinely to issue fixed penalty tickets where as the ticket given to my colleague was printed and issued all at the same time using a pda device, is this common ?

The force in question is the MPS.

#2 ococircusboy

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 06:54 PM

I was with a colleague in the car when my colleagues mobile phone started to ring, unfortunately my colleague picked up the call as the caller was a police officer he was expecting a call from in connection with an enquiry, suddenly to our surprise the vehicle behind us turned on blue lights and we were signalled to stop (unmarked traffic car).

We stopped and got out the car and spoke to the officer who was a traffic police officer, immediately the officer uttered the usual caution.

My colleague was then issued with a £60 3 points fixed penalty ticket, the officer issuing the ticket used a pda and as part of the process the officer insisted on taking a photograph of my colleague using the pda device for issuing the ticket.

The question I have is, in respect of the photograph does anyone know under what legislation is the officer empowered to require a MoP's photograph to submit to allowing the officer to take his or her image ?

Where I work at the moment police officers do not have access to pda's routinely to issue fixed penalty tickets where as the ticket given to my colleague was printed and issued all at the same time using a pda device, is this common ?

The force in question is the MPS.


Currently on my phone so can't find the legislation but we do in the situation of an offence have a power to take a photograph but (I believe) we cannot use force unless certain circs exist.

#3 Fenix

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 06:55 PM

There is the power to take a photograph in this situation.

Section 64A of PACE.....

This section covers a number of situations away from the police station where you may photograph subjects, including someone who has been detained by a PCSO!

I imagine you could therefore use 117 to use force to do so, if necessary. The section also specifically states that a constable may remove anything disguising the head or face, using force if necessary.

Fantastic power if you ask me, and another brilliant advantage of PDAs... this surely will put an end to the "it wasn't me" saga at court. One less way for people to wriggle out of it.

Edited by Fenix, 18 July 2012 - 07:05 PM.


#4 NY2010

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 08:10 PM

Can someone please confirm the situation regarding taking photographs outside of the police station and the use of force for such photos (if any)?

#5 Fenix

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 08:26 PM

Can someone please confirm the situation regarding taking photographs outside of the police station and the use of force for such photos (if any)?


What do you mean....?

If there is a power to take a photograph under S64A PACE which lists a number of situations where you may photograph a person other than at a police station then you may use force if they do not comply. You should request their consent but if they refuse it then you can take the photograph without their consent. This comes from S117 PACE.

There are many situations where you can do this (see 64A PACE) but a few are:

- upon arrest
- when detained by PCSO (photo to be taken by PC)
- when issued FPN
- when given direction to leave

Edited by Fenix, 18 July 2012 - 08:28 PM.


#6 MerseyLLB

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 08:31 PM

Outside of the police station and the circumstances supplied in PACE, you cannot use force to take a picture. Simples.

#7 TCambs

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 10:54 PM

Outside of the police station and the circumstances supplied in PACE, you cannot use force to take a picture. Simples.


Not that I'm saying your wrong, but where does it say that?

EDIT: Just realised you probably meant circumstances outside of S64A.

Also:

Posted Image

Edited by TCambs, 18 July 2012 - 10:57 PM.


#8 brnam

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 11:15 PM

I can see where the counties get the "scruffy met" joke from :new_doh2:, no tie and a high-vis jacket? Haha.

#9 Fenix

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 06:45 AM

I can see where the counties get the "scruffy met" joke from :new_doh2:, no tie and a high-vis jacket? Haha.


Bloody Specials :rolleyes:

:p

#10 Shogy1

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:35 AM

[F164A Photographing of suspects etc.(1)A person who is detained at a police station may be photographed—
(a)with the appropriate consent; or
(b)if the appropriate consent is withheld or it is not practicable to obtain it, without it.
[F2(1A)A person falling within subsection (1B) below may, on the occasion of the relevant event referred to in subsection (1B), be photographed elsewhere than at a police station—
(a)with the appropriate consent; or
(b)if the appropriate consent is withheld or it is not practicable to obtain it, without it.
(1B)A person falls within this subsection if he has been—
(a)arrested by a constable for an offence;
(b)taken into custody by a constable after being arrested for an offence by a person other than a constable;
©made subject to a requirement to wait with a community support officer under paragraph 2(3) or (3B) of Schedule 4 to the Police Reform Act 2002 (“the 2002 Act”);]
[F3(ca)given a direction by a constable under section 27 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006;]
(d)given a penalty notice by a constable in uniform under Chapter 1 of Part 1 of the Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001, a penalty notice by a constable under section 444A of the Education Act 1996, or a fixed penalty notice by a constable in uniform under section 54 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988;
(e)given a notice in relation to a relevant fixed penalty offence (within the meaning of paragraph 1 of Schedule 4 to the 2002 Act) by a community support officer by virtue of a designation applying that paragraph to him; F4...
(f)given a notice in relation to a relevant fixed penalty offence (within the meaning of paragraph 1 of Schedule 5 to the 2002 Act) by an accredited person by virtue of accreditation specifying that that paragraph applies to him.[F5; or
(g)given a notice in relation to a relevant fixed penalty offence (within the meaning of Schedule 5A to the 2002 Act) by an accredited inspector by virtue of accreditation specifying that paragraph 1 of Schedule 5A to the 2002 Act applies to him.]
(2)A person proposing to take a photograph of any person under this section—
(a)may, for the purpose of doing so, require the removal of any item or substance worn on or over the whole or any part of the head or face of the person to be photographed; and
(b)if the requirement is not complied with, may remove the item or substance himself.
(3)Where a photograph may be taken under this section, the only persons entitled to take the photograph are [F6constables].
(4)A photograph taken under this section—
(a)may be used by, or disclosed to, any person for any purpose related to the prevention or detection of crime, the investigation of an offence or the conduct of a prosecution [F7or to the enforcement of a sentence]; and
(b)after being so used or disclosed, may be retained but may not be used or disclosed except for a purpose so related.
(5)In subsection (4)—
(a)the reference to crime includes a reference to any conduct which—
(i)constitutes one or more criminal offences (whether under the law of a part of the United Kingdom or of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom); or
(ii)is, or corresponds to, any conduct which, if it all took place in any one part of the United Kingdom, would constitute one or more criminal offences;
and
(b)the references to an investigation and to a prosecution include references, respectively, to any investigation outside the United Kingdom of any crime or suspected crime and to a prosecution brought in respect of any crime in a country or territory outside the United Kingdom.[F8; and
©“sentence” includes any order made by a court in England and Wales when dealing with an offender in respect of his offence.]
(6)References in this section to taking a photograph include references to using any process by means of which a visual image may be produced; and references to photographing a person shall be construed accordingly.
[F9(6A)In this section, a “photograph” includes a moving image, and corresponding expressions shall be construed accordingly.]
[F10(7)Nothing in this section applies to a person arrested under an extradition arrest power.]]

#11 Shogy1

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 08:08 AM

Outside of the police station and the circumstances supplied in PACE, you cannot use force to take a picture. Simples.


What makes you say that then? Do you mean outside the powers of pace also?

Edited by Shogy1, 19 July 2012 - 08:10 AM.


#12 SkinSte

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:39 AM

Outside of the police station and the circumstances supplied in PACE, you cannot use force to take a picture. Simples.


(b)if the appropriate consent is withheld or it is not practicable to obtain it, without it.


(2)A person proposing to take a photograph of any person under this section—
(a)may, for the purpose of doing so, require the removal of any item or substance worn on or over the whole or any part of the head or face of the person to be photographed; and
(b)if the requirement is not complied with, may remove the item or substance himself.


I'm sure you know about section 117 of PACE.

#13 General Purpose

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 11:47 AM

I was with a colleague in the car when my colleagues mobile phone started to ring, unfortunately my colleague picked up the call as the caller was a police officer he was expecting a call from in connection with an enquiry, suddenly to our surprise the vehicle behind us turned on blue lights and we were signalled to stop (unmarked traffic car).

We stopped and got out the car and spoke to the officer who was a traffic police officer, immediately the officer uttered the usual caution.

My colleague was then issued with a £60 3 points fixed penalty ticket, the officer issuing the ticket used a pda and as part of the process the officer insisted on taking a photograph of my colleague using the pda device for issuing the ticket.

The question I have is, in respect of the photograph does anyone know under what legislation is the officer empowered to require a MoP's photograph to submit to allowing the officer to take his or her image ?

Where I work at the moment police officers do not have access to pda's routinely to issue fixed penalty tickets where as the ticket given to my colleague was printed and issued all at the same time using a pda device, is this common ?

The force in question is the MPS.


They can take the photo for the investigation incase he denies it was him :)

#14 Krycek

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 01:23 PM

BTP officers use PDAs to issue PNDs (in theory), I wasn't aware that MPS did as well but it makes sense.

#15 MerseyLLB

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 12:17 AM

I'm sure you know about section 117 of PACE.


To clarify my point:

On the street, there is no power to use force to take a picture unless under the provisions of s64A PACE.

#16 support

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 01:00 AM

When my friend challenged the photograph being taken, and was told the officer had the power to take the photo without consent but did not know what legislation applied, seemed very confused.

Where I work the police do not use PDA's to issue FPN's.

#17 Shogy1

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 04:08 AM

When my friend challenged the photograph being taken, and was told the officer had the power to take the photo without consent but did not know what legislation applied, seemed very confused.

Where I work the police do not use PDA's to issue FPN's.


Just take a picture with a job digital camera and download it and print off and attach it to your fpn.

#18 support

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 11:36 PM

Just take a picture with a job digital camera and download it and print off and attach it to your fpn.


What I am trying to find out is what is the lawful authority to take the photo without consent ? using the pda.

#19 Shogy1

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 11:51 PM

What I am trying to find out is what is the lawful authority to take the photo without consent ? using the pda.


which part of Section 64A is confusing you? The PDA has camera in it. so when a FPN is done (on PDA) and a picture taken it all goes off in one file. If you issue a Paper FPN then the photo gets stapled to the ticket. The power to take the photo is contained in section 64A.

#20 Fenix

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 05:21 PM

What I am trying to find out is what is the lawful authority to take the photo without consent ? using the pda.



In the second reply after your original post I thought I posted quite comprehensively on the question giving you the exact section which answers your question?

What happened was lawfull, whether you or "your friend" approves or not. The Met are making best use of this legislation by building in the facility to the PDA FPN issuing process.

Edited by Fenix, 27 July 2012 - 05:21 PM.


#21 support

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 01:33 AM

Thanks for the guidance, it is very helpful on the use of pda's in issuing FPN's and explains section 64a clearly, much appreciated.

#22 Shogy1

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 09:59 AM

Just as an aside to this thread has anyone else been in the situation that once you have taken their picture then the accused suddenly wants a photo of you as well? I seem to have gone through a spate of these recently. I don't pose for them but I can't see why they would want one, other than trying to irritate you...

#23 support

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 02:29 AM

Just as an aside to this thread has anyone else been in the situation that once you have taken their picture then the accused suddenly wants a photo of you as well? I seem to have gone through a spate of these recently. I don't pose for them but I can't see why they would want one, other than trying to irritate you...


Your likely to end up on there facebook or some where else on the net, I tend to think that if a MoP has had there picture taken then this can irritate them and lead to problems as most MoP's don't expect the police to take a picture of them on the road side, especially as this is not well known about by the public.

Bit tit for tat, you take my picture and I take yours.

I think that the public need educating about the procedure of taking photos on the road side as part of the process, but equally officers need to explain why and under what circumstances they take pics and the rights of the person photographed if challenged.

I am still not sure why need pictures of MoP's as the police and process worked fine long before the pda and electronic FPN's.

Paperwork seemed to function fine without digital images.

#24 Shogy1

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 03:59 AM

Your likely to end up on there facebook or some where else on the net, I tend to think that if a MoP has had there picture taken then this can irritate them and lead to problems as most MoP's don't expect the police to take a picture of them on the road side, especially as this is not well known about by the public.

Bit tit for tat, you take my picture and I take yours.

I think that the public need educating about the procedure of taking photos on the road side as part of the process, but equally officers need to explain why and under what circumstances they take pics and the rights of the person photographed if challenged.

I am still not sure why need pictures of MoP's as the police and process worked fine long before the pda and electronic FPN's.

Paperwork seemed to function fine without digital images.


They are taken to ensure that the correct person is dealt with if the matter comes to court. Saves a lot of wasted court time and stops people using the "It wasn't me" defence a year down the line. Since I've started taking the photo's of accused on the street i've noticed a marked drop off in court appearances. Before that almost every 2 out of 3 were saying it wasn't them.

I carry a FPN sized printed piece of card with me with 64A explained on it and let them read it.

#25 SC Ben

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 08:10 AM

Had my PDA in herts for about a year now, and although we use paper tickets, I always take a picture of the person or defects




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