31 replies to this topic

[MerseyLLB]

Don't believe this vid has been widely discussed before. This will undoubtedly divide opinion as usual.

Alot of comments on the video say 'they couldnt see anyone resisting'. Personally I couldn't see anyone comlying! Seems a little unfair that the other officers left the female PC to struggle for so long but then again they had their hands full.

[HerrComm]

Why do people go bandy as soon as we use leg strikes/palm strikes?

Pretty standard incident tbh, can't really see anything untoward in the actions of the PCs apart from squashing in on the female officer at one point although necessary to gain control of one of the males.

[Radman]

What did the guy record this on? His toaster?

Nothing to divide opinion here to be honest, looked like the cops were caught in the middle of something here, the bobbies did nothing wrong and in my opinion could EASILY justify the force used.

The only question I have is where was our BTP London lot eh?

[MerseyLLB]

People have a strange pack mentality. I once detained a female for s5 at a tube station after she had gobbed off at me and TfL revenue. She tried to push me over and had about 8-10 stone weight advantage on me as well as an inch or so in height. I front stacked her just to get a bit of an upper hand but she kept pulling me all over the shot and swinging her elbows at me, so I ended up pulling her in for a dead leg. Without me realising a crowd of literally 30 people had surrounded us and they were taking pictures on their phone, shouting at me 'SHES A WOMAN FFS' etc ignoring the fact that she was a mountain of a woman and also the probability that if any of her elbows had struck me I would probably be waking up a few seconds later on the floor wondering where my prisoner was!

People don't bat an eyelid when a bouncer knocks a drunk punters teeth out, but if the police do anything more than politely request someone to accompany them to the local bridewell then there is always a crowd who will scream brutality and police state!

[Radman]

People have a strange pack mentality. I once detained a female for s5 at a tube station after she had gobbed off at me and TfL revenue. She tried to push me over and had about 8-10 stone weight advantage on me as well as an inch or so in height. I front stacked her just to get a bit of an upper hand but she kept pulling me all over the shot and swinging her elbows at me, so I ended up pulling her in for a dead leg. Without me realising a crowd of literally 30 people had surrounded us and they were taking pictures on their phone, shouting at me 'SHES A WOMAN FFS' etc ignoring the fact that she was a mountain of a woman and also the probability that if any of her elbows had struck me I would probably be waking up a few seconds later on the floor wondering where my prisoner was!

People don't bat an eyelid when a bouncer knocks a drunk punters teeth out, but if the police do anything more than politely request someone to accompany them to the local bridewell then there is always a crowd who will scream brutality and police state!

I said it once on here before and i'll say it again, if im ever struggling with a prisoner on the floor and I notice some idiot filming it im going to ask that person, "I NEED YOUR HELP MATE, PLEASE HELP ME" and if they refuse, laugh or just ignore me completely and continue to film it then I SWEAR I will arrest that individual for failing to assist a constable under common law....

The courts will probably throw it out but it'd make me feel better.

Saying that though when your fighting with someone your attention tends to be on them...

[Prolixia]

Obviously I've no idea how that situation arose, but based purely on what is shown in the video I can't see that the officers did anything at all wrong here. It certainly didn't look heavy handed.

It irritates me that when videos show 6 officers safely restraining one DP then everyone shouts "6 on 1, that's police brutality", but as soon as there are only one or two officers present and more 'active' force needs to be used to achieve the same goal, the same people are up in arms again about that. Then for every commenter who wants the police to turn a blind eye to public order offences there's another who want water cannon to be rolled out. There's frankly no winning.

[oohraa]

I said it once on here before and i'll say it again, if im ever struggling with a prisoner on the floor and I notice some idiot filming it im going to ask that person, "I NEED YOUR HELP MATE, PLEASE HELP ME" and if they refuse, laugh or just ignore me completely and continue to film it then I SWEAR I will arrest that individual for failing to assist a constable under common law....

The courts will probably throw it out but it'd make me feel better.

Saying that though when your fighting with someone your attention tends to be on them...

Genius

[Lucas North]

I love how people in this country complain about police brutality... if this had been the USA, they would have taken a bullet in the rear.

I hate bleeding heart liberals, but I breathe easy in the knowledge that karma will one day create and equal, but opposite reaction

[BigCopSmallTown]

No problem in my opinion - nothing unjustified from the footage shown and I would expect easily defended by the officers in court. Next...

(I like the idea of arresting them for failing to assist - might try that one day although I imagine the custody sgt wouldnt be too chuffed!- a summons might be more appropriate!)

[CmdKeen]

(I like the idea of arresting them for failing to assist - might try that one day although I imagine the custody sgt wouldnt be too chuffed!- a summons might be more appropriate!)

I'm waiting for the day someone arrests a custody sgt for obstruction or failing to assist a constable...

[Sam Vimes]

Nothing like a lack of context to make cops look like thugs.

[TroyTempest]

Quite, I caught an escaped mental patient who'd assaulted one bloke and caused several thousand pounds worth of damage to cars and who tried to stab me were it not for the body armour. Once in cuffs a lady walks past asking him if he's alright.

Had she been through 30 seconds earlier she might have been stabbed herself. Funny old world

[BazzaBill]

I said it once on here before and i'll say it again, if im ever struggling with a prisoner on the floor and I notice some idiot filming it im going to ask that person, "I NEED YOUR HELP MATE, PLEASE HELP ME" and if they refuse, laugh or just ignore me completely and continue to film it then I SWEAR I will arrest that individual for failing to assist a constable under common law....

The courts will probably throw it out but it'd make me feel better.

Saying that though when your fighting with someone your attention tends to be on them...

They probably are an idiot for filming, but why do you object to them doing so ? I didn't see the police doing anything wrong in the clip so why get so worked up about anyone filming the incident? It's most likely all being captured on CCTV anyway.

It wouldn't even get as far as court. The public don't have PPE - you do. Any one of them could have produced a knife. It's totally unreasonable to expect a member of the public to join in the scuffle, especially in the circumstances in that clip.

They'd probably allege that they were unhappy at what they saw and that's why they started filming. Arresting them isn't going to help and you leave yourself open to investigation by PSD/DPS (or whatever).

Far better to ignore the filming.

[Radman]

They probably are an idiot for filming, but why do you object to them doing so ? I didn't see the police doing anything wrong in the clip so why get so worked up about anyone filming the incident? It's most likely all being captured on CCTV anyway.

I dont object to being filmed but i'd object to someone filming me taking a kicking when im struggling with someone.

It wouldn't even get as far as court. The public don't have PPE - you do.

Its a criminal offence not to assist a constable - of course it'd get to court. Two people were prosecuted for the offence in 2006...

Any one of them could have produced a knife. It's totally unreasonable to expect a member of the public to join in the scuffle, especially in the circumstances in that clip.

But its acceptable to stand back and watch a cop take a shoeing? In your head thats a perfectly normal and acceptable thing to do?

They'd probably allege that they were unhappy at what they saw and that's why they started filming. Arresting them isn't going to help and you leave yourself open to investigation by PSD/DPS (or whatever).

Far better to ignore the filming.

Why is it 'far better' to allow them to film if you're taking a shoeing?

In order to police effectivley we, as constables often require the backing, support and help from honest, law abiding members of public. Plenty of times i've had MOP's run over and assist me with arrests when i've been on my own struggling with folk, thankfully some people still see it as their duty to help.

Edited by Radman, 13 June 2012 - 06:07 PM.

[BazzaBill]

I dont object to being filmed but i'd object to someone filming me taking a kicking when im struggling with someone.

Fair enough. That's why they're an idiot.


Its a criminal offence not to assist a constable - of course it'd get to court. Two people were prosecuted for the offence in 2006...

2 people in 5 years (2005 to 2009). There's no confirmation/evidence that they were convicted. If they were convicted it's quite likely that the offence covered the situation of not dialling 999 and urgently requesting further officers to attend.



But its acceptable to stand back and watch a cop take a shoeing? In your head thats a perfectly normal and acceptable thing to do?

For me, being a very short unfit guy in his 50's, I would be reluctant to get involved in some cases. The police have PPE. I don't. The offender may have a weapon (knife or perhaps even a gun). I really don't know. I'd rather call 999 and urgently explain the situation. If it's 4 police and 4 offenders, and one police is getting a kicking, is it fair to ask me to get involved and risk getting a kicking as well?

On the other hand if I saw one offender giving a single officer a kicking and I thought that my involvement would make a difference then I probably would get involved - or at least I hope I would.




Why is it 'far better' to allow them filming if you're taking a shoeing?

You probably don't have much of a choice at the time, but it seems rather pointless to arrest the filmer afterwards.



In order to police effectivley we, as constables often require the backing, support and help from honest, law abiding members of public. Plenty of times i've had MOP's run over and assist me with arrests when i've been on my own struggling with folk, thankfully some people still see it as their duty to help.

Sorry, but I'd have to weigh up the odds before wading in. I'd like to think that I would help if it was one on one, but to be honest I wouldn't automatically rush in no matter what the circumstances were.

[Jeebs]

What good is calling 999 and telling them something they will most likely already know from a screamed transmission or emergency button activation! Your hands would be much more helpful, even if its just to sit on someone or twist an arm up a back to help get the cuffs on, it doesn't really take much physical prowess!

I would expect a member of the public to help if they saw me struggling with some numpty, I wouldn't go so far as to try and arrest them for not helping, but I think I would be having stern words afterwards.

Edited by Jeebs, 13 June 2012 - 06:40 PM.

[BazzaBill]

What good is calling 999 and telling them something they will most likely already know from a screamed transmission or emergency button activation! Your hands would be much more helpful, even if its just to sit on someone or twist an arm up a back to help get the cuffs on, it doesn't really take much physical prowess!

I would expect a member of the public to help if they saw me struggling with some numpty, I wouldn't go so far as to try and arrest them for not helping, but I think I would be having stern words afterwards.

I'm 5' 5" (on a good day). I was always the last to be picked at sport. Even in my 30's I was less than 8 stone.

If 6 guys are kicking hell out of a copper, what use am I going to be?

How do you know that Control know exactly what's happening and where ? That's one big assumption.

I wouldn't join in because I'd get a beating as well. I'd try and call them off by saying that "he's had enough now". It probably wouldn't do any good but I think that I'd be better off checking that control are aware of the situation.

To be perfectly honest, filming it for evidential purposes (and not to put on Youtube) may actually be a good idea.

If you're struggling one on one with a numpty and asked for help then I would help, but if he's got a gun, knife or machete, I'll probably be hesitant. Sorry!

[Josh'Grizzly'Gregory]

Brutality my rear! All I can see is approved techniques according to training, easily justifiable and no dramas all about when they get into custody. It really grinds my gears when people shout "You can't do that, I'm only 5' 7'' so the majority of people about me are generally taller (even when I'm in my boots) and normally have the upper hand (rather literally) when it comes to a scuffle so to get some height reduction I go for the knee into the thigh for a distraction strike which reduces the chances of injury to colleagues and MoP as I can gain control quicker.

[crunchybits]

Interesting real time dynamic encounter demonstrating controlled use of force, officer movement and controlled strikes from what I could see on the video. Nothing I see in that video looks untoward.

If the police have to arrest mob handed/using strikes then the accusation of the police being 'over the top' and violent is all too easily made. Police officers are using controlled applied force to affect a legal outcome. Most people have precisely zero experience and knowledge of that process. It is also never going to make for comfortable viewing and neither should it.

Lots of writing setting out the full context of why you acted the way you did and reasonable people will easily appreciate that explanation. We simply don't have time to do that on the street which is why we have ultimate accountability to our senior officers and a Court of Law.

One of the options for officers is to consider using C.S as an OST tool in preference to strikes as any video footage <<there is always video footage>> often shows a lower level of dynamic movement.

The last thing the police need is to get into sustained wrestling match and in this instance the female officer is physically moved several meters by the detained male. Option - CS him as although restrained the officer could easily be losing control of the detained person. There are other options ....

Edited by crunchybits, 13 June 2012 - 08:39 PM.

[rego_psp22]

I can't believe nobody has passed comment on the female officer! Allow me to, she's lovely!! Anyway, I don't think there was anything wrong with that - three suspects all of which are uncompliant to varying degrees, all bar one is handcuffed in a semi compliant fashion. The remaining chap is completely uncompliant and in the circumstances a knee and a take down aren't disproportionate and given the environment are perhaps the most suitable means to bring restrain them. They even sit the chap up once there is no struggle which shows consideration to the force used and cognisance regarding positional asphyxia.

[Josh'Grizzly'Gregory]

Would I be right in thinking reading from the comments that there are 2 statements to be made: 1) we know what is proportional and justifiable force and 2) we've all not long had out safety training refresher courses haha. Just an observation.

For situations like this, is the reason why I love my body worn camera. You can see 90% of what I see and hear 100% of what I hear, so there can be no gripe as to who said what and why certain things were done.

Edited by Josh'Grizzly'Gregory, 13 June 2012 - 08:41 PM.

[Night watchman]

Nothing like a lack of context to make cops look like thugs.

I agree

Who's to say they haven't just beaten someone to death just outside the door?
No context = No clue

Edited by Night watchman, 14 June 2012 - 06:17 PM.

[The Constable]

Firstly I am on a BlackBerry and cannot see this video. Can someone quote me and place a text link / the url down here for me please so I can watch it.

Secondly: How would that workout Radman? Quite interesting how you'd be able to arrest two people at the same time.

I said it once on here before and i'll say it again, if im ever struggling with a prisoner on the floor and I notice some idiot filming it im going to ask that person, "I NEED YOUR HELP MATE, PLEASE HELP ME" and if they refuse, laugh or just ignore me completely and continue to film it then I SWEAR I will arrest that individual for failing to assist a constable under common law....

The courts will probably throw it out but it'd make me feel better.

Saying that though when your fighting with someone your attention tends to be on them...

[Radman]

Firstly I am on a BlackBerry and cannot see this video. Can someone quote me and place a text link / the url down here for me please so I can watch it.

Secondly: How would that workout Radman? Quite interesting how you'd be able to arrest two people at the same time.

Im sure back-up would eventually make its way to me aswell at some point.

Then of course theres the interesting possibility of not arresting in the first place and simply report the individual for summons.

Edited by Radman, 14 June 2012 - 07:08 PM.

[MetPaul]

Just looks like officers dealing well with what officers deal with on a daily basis. Well done them...