11 replies to this topic

[Drich]

Were I work, we have a very uncomplicated one way system. That no customers seem to understand. They drive down the no entry route to nab the last few spaces before anyone else. The car park is owned by the landlords and the new system was put in by the company who look after the car park, tickets etc.

My query is, if somone goes the wrong way round a carpark, or does any other 'questionable driving' on private property, is it an offence>

[Damsel]

Is the carpark controlled access, either via a gate or barrier?

[Potious]

I believe the answer to your question is YES, as long the public have access at the material time...

[smt]

That no customers seem to understand. They drive down the no entry route to nab the last few spaces before anyone else.

Simple solution - have the landlords install these.

[Drich]

Is the carpark controlled access, either via a gate or barrier?

There is a gate/barrier, but its barley used..

[DarkerZeus]

There is a subtle but important difference to it being private property and considered a road for the purposes of the road traffic act. A car park can be privately owned but still considered a road for the purposes of the road traffic act if the public have access. Therefore a privately owned car park such as one owned by a supermarket can still be considered a road and offences such as driving with no insurance can still be committed, so be careful when you decide to take your mates Ferrari for a spin round Tesco's car park! Hope this answers the question but ultimately it would be a matter for the court to decide if at the material time the car park in question was classed as a road.

[Woody]

There is a subtle but important difference to it being private property and considered a road for the purposes of the road traffic act. A car park can be privately owned but still considered a road for the purposes of the road traffic act if the public have access. Therefore a privately owned car park such as one owned by a supermarket can still be considered a road and offences such as driving with no insurance can still be committed, so be careful when you decide to take your mates Ferrari for a spin round Tesco's car park! Hope this answers the question but ultimately it would be a matter for the court to decide if at the material time the car park in question was classed as a road.

unless parked in a bay.

[Damsel]

There is a subtle but important difference to it being private property and considered a road for the purposes of the road traffic act. A car park can be privately owned but still considered a road for the purposes of the road traffic act if the public have access. Therefore a privately owned car park such as one owned by a supermarket can still be considered a road and offences such as driving with no insurance can still be committed, so be careful when you decide to take your mates Ferrari for a spin round Tesco's car park! Hope this answers the question but ultimately it would be a matter for the court to decide if at the material time the car park in question was classed as a road.

Which is kind of where I was going with the barrier/gates question. I'm sure (though don't ask me where) there's something that says that if there is a barrier or gate that is/can be used to control access, then the car park might not be subject to the RTA.

This probably wouldn't apply to a supermarket car park, but could apply to car parks for employees only etc

[SimpleTater]

Hello, people, I'm NEW. I hope you don't mind me jumping in ? but I have been following this thread for a couple of days and can see it drifting further and further from the original question.

Can you be prosecuted for ignoring a one way system on private property ? The answer is no. Only signs erected under an order made under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 can be prosecuted, in short, that's a Traffic Regulation Order made by a Municipal Authority with delegated power to make such an Order.

So, one way signs, no entry signs, no right turn signs, etc etc on private property can not be enforced under the Road Traffic Act 1988, with the possible exception of Airports and Ports , who may well have delegated authority to make an order.

On the wider point that the thread is trying to address, Some road traffic offences can only be committed on a (public) road, other can be committed on a road or public place. Mobile phone offences, not in a position to be in proper control, bald tyres( in fact most, if not all, Construction and Use requirement) can only be committed on a road. Driving with out Due care and attention, no insurance drink and drugs offences can be committed in a public place, as well as on a road.

The person who said its a material fact, for a Court to decided, was correct, there are dozens of mostly contradictory case law definitions of what is and is not a ( public) road or public place, enough to do a whole dissertation on. But, in very general terms, a car park is very seldom a road, unless it has some unusual characteristics that make it so, but it very well might be a public place, subject to the barrier issue identified above. Though it must be stressed that the presence of a barrier might stop it being a public place, but the lack of a barrier may not make it one. Some locations are prima faciepublic places, like petrol stations and Supermarket car parks, Others its far less clear with the onus being on the prosecution to show , not only, that it could be accessed by the general public, but that it is regularly accessed by them.

But, this is a long was from the original question, so I will leave it there unless someone specifically wants to discuss it with me

[Woody]

I was always taught if it looks like a road it is a road, barrier or not, A judge is the only person who can decided.

[SimpleTater]

I was always taught if it looks like a road it is a road, barrier or not, A judge is the only person who can decided.

Yes, that's a good rule of thumb, if its 10ft wide and 400 yards long its most probably a road, if its 100 yard square its most probably a car park. But the barriers are a factor in deciding if its a road or car park accessed by the general public, not if its a road or not

[SkinSte]

unless parked in a bay.

Considering he said driving without insurance, if you are parked in a bay, by definition you are not driving (case law for disqualified driving, that the vehicle must be moving to count as being driven).