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Proper Sentencing

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#1 Killicksparker

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 10:10 AM

Have our colonial cousins got it right with sentencing - a couple of examples shown below where the sentence given by US Courts would make a UK judges eyes water.

A man who was arrested five times for drunk driving was sentenced to 45 years in prison.
A jury found Stephen Andrew Hall, 59, of Fort Worth, Texas guilty of felony driving while intoxicated this month in his fifth case on similar charges.

A jury took about four minutes to agree on a guilty verdict in the latest case.
His most recent drunk driving arrest occurred in July 2011 when a police officer pulled him over for failing to stop at an intersection. When the officer approached Hall's car window, the driver said: 'I'm so under arrest,' according to the district attorney's office in Tarrant County, Texas. He went on to tell the officer that he had two beers, the district attorney's office said. Hall told the officer: 'I'm guilty.'
The man's blood-alcohol concentration was two times the legal limit at .18 when he was tested two hours later, authorities said.

In court, prosecutors revealed that Hall had been previously sentenced to prison for 20 years for aggravated robbery. He had already served time for his other DWI convictions. Hall's repeated offences had raised the possibility that Hall would face 25 years to life in prison. Judge Mollee Westfall decided on a 45-year sentence after taking his age and life circumstances into consideration.

He must fulfill a quarter of his sentence before he can become eligible for parole. In a statement, Assistant District Attorney Erin Cofer called the sentence 'fitting' because of Hall's criminal history.
'Judge Westfall’s sentence ensures that he will not be able to drive a vehicle on our roads for a very long time,' the district attorney said.

Read more: http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz1vgXfQ5n1

A former police woman has relived the terrifying night she was shot five times at point blank range as she tackled a pair of psychopathic gunmen who were holding her boyfriend's family hostage.
Petite Isabella Lovadina, 29, fought off the two thugs who had forced their way at gunpoint into the home of boyfriend Nick Koenig's grandmother, where Isabella had just enjoyed a relaxed family dinner. Four generations of Nick's family were staying at the St. Louis house during the terrifying raid in 2009 in which his cousin Gina, a single mother of two, was shot dead.
(edited)

Nick's aunt Rose had managed to escape the house and had been tearing down the street banging on neighbours' doors and screaming for help. Meanwhile young Sam managed to find a mobile phone and coolly called 911. Ambulances were on the way, but for Isabella, who had been shot five times and was loosing a lot of blood, it would be touch and go. Thankfully the paramedics arrived in time and both Nick and Isabella were rushed to hospital. Tragically Gina was dead.

Across the city, one of the raiders walked into the emergency room at Barnes Hospital claiming he had been shot in the hand. A quick witted X-ray operator realised that something wasn't quite right and the hospital contacted the police who arrive to see the man walking out to his car next to which his accomplice is waiting. The cops followed the man to a nearby park where where they saw him throw something onto the ground. He is later apprehended and jewellery belonging to Nick's grandmother Ida is found in his pocket. Police recovered a black handgun from the park.
Officers determined that he was Mario Coleman. The second man, Ledale Nathan Jr, is also arrested. Isabella was able to identify both men from a photo line-up from he hospital bed.
Coleman, 24, was sentenced to life without parole for first-degree murder plus five life terms plus 90 years. LeDale Nathan Jr., received life without parole plus five life terms plus 75 years.
Sadly Isabella's injuries meant she had to retire from the force. She was commended for her bravery, awarded the Medal of Valour by Missouri Governor Jay Nixon and even had a day named after her by the Mayor of St. Louis.

Read more: http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz1vgZnt7RF



#2 MacGregor

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 10:14 AM

Their sentencing doesn't seem to do much to keep crime rates low. The fact that it doesn't really work speaks for itself.

If you want to look at a criminal justice system that really does seem to work, look at Norway.

#3 Killicksparker

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 10:22 AM

If you want to look at a criminal justice system that really does seem to work, look at Norway.


Anders Breivik - what's the maximum he can get ??



v

#4 MacGregor

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 10:38 AM

Anders Breivik - what's the maximum he can get ??



v


Depends if he is declared sane or not doesn't it?

In any case, that is an incredibly poor argument against the justice system in Norway (and I think you realise how poor it is). Mass shootings can happen anywhere regardless of the sentence that the person may receive as history has shown time and again. There is no intelligent reason to use an exceptional case to slate a system that deals with less exceptional cases very well. Their reoffending rate really does speak for itself.

#5 Killicksparker

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 10:56 AM

Re-offending rates are more to do with follow up care than sentencing. Anyway, if you are serving 5 life terms plus 75 years, you are hardly going to re-offend are you. I was more talking about punishments fitting the crimes

#6 MacGregor

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 11:00 AM

Re-offending rates are more to do with follow up care than sentencing. Anyway, if you are serving 5 life terms plus 75 years, you are hardly going to re-offend are you. I was more talking about punishments fitting the crimes


The Norwegian take on punishment fitting the crime is very different to that in the US so why dismiss it? It is all linked, I think you only dismiss it because it doesn't show what you want it to.

#7 Killicksparker

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 11:59 AM

I'm not dismissing anything. The theme of the topic was a question to provoke debate (Have they got it right?), which you obviously believe the answer is "No", and have suggested another alternative, good on you. I have not said at any point that you are wrong, and would never ever say that your opinion is wrong - an opinion is a personal thing, so can never be wrong. It was not an invitation to have a pop just because I asked a question. Debate by all means, but personal remarks are both unnecessary and unwelcome

#8 CmdKeen

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 12:42 PM

The Economist had two very interesting articles on the Californian prison system in this issue - I'd recommend looking them up (one here). It eloquently puts it that in the US prison is somewhere criminals go, but Europe views it as somewhere criminals come back from.

The US system is plagued by overcrowding, to a ridiculous extent, and parole violations mean it is really easy to end up back behind bars. The system doesn't have time to rehabilitate, and plenty of people shouldn't be there in the first place - small time drug users being the key example. Reforms are coming, California is pushing non serious, non violent and non sexual prisoners back to the county jail system where the Sheriff has a lot of leeway into how they are handled, being able to put them through rehab instead or GPS tagged release.

The problem in the UK seems to be that the courts don't punish breaking the "one more chance" or non custodial sentences. There needs to be a stick as well as a carrot, and perhaps if people weren't allowed to rack up large numbers of offences before ever seeing jail they might be diverted earlier. Some really good work is being done on rehabilitation in prisons, even better would be if every prisoner left drug free. But that relies on people ending up in those places - and community sentences that get breached for the first 30 offences hardly sets the state up in a powerful position.

#9 Marty McFly

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 01:40 PM

just because something works in one country doesn't mean it works in another, take the nhs, would it work in the US? probably not, you cant just import things over.

same with the norwegian justice system, in this country, the opposition would be far too great and have my doubts as to whether or not it would work.

Personally, i'm old fashioned and think when people do bad things they should go to prison - with the primary purpose being keeping the innocent members of the public safe, with rehabillitation an afterthought compared to public safety. "Prison Works", as one politician famously said.

http://blogs.telegra...sentimentality/

it's clear the rehabillitation efforts in this country have just become a failed social experiment.

Prison is also too cushy for my liking, a prison cell should resemble a police cell, or "custody suite cell" as i believe the correct term is today (and yes, there is a difference for those who don't know) - not a 3 star hotel.

To illustrate my point, in the uk 36,202 prisoners are eligible to have a games console in their cell; That is beyond a joke. It should be zero. absolutely none.

Edited by Marty McFly, 23 May 2012 - 03:10 PM.


#10 Radman

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 03:04 PM

Their sentencing doesn't seem to do much to keep crime rates low. The fact that it doesn't really work speaks for itself.

If you want to look at a criminal justice system that really does seem to work, look at Norway.



I wouldnt want to see criminals effectively sentenced to a beach holiday resort, complete with skeet shooting...


Thats just me though CJM, I firmly believe that punishment should play a part within the prison system.

Edited by Radman, 23 May 2012 - 03:05 PM.


#11 forensicsteve

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 04:18 PM

A difficulty that arises when comparing to the US is that laws and the state/local judiciary system can vary from State to State and there are 50 of them. Federal laws offer a more even approach across the US but most crimes are not federal offenses.

#12 Dizzydee

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 06:18 PM

I'm all for rehabilitation, but when someone commits a serious offence, I have no sympathy for them and believe they should be sentenced as harshly as possible.

#13 Übèrnamè

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 03:04 AM

Also another interesting note, the US drink-drive limit is one of the highest in the world. .040 I believe.

#14 Marty McFly

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 10:26 AM

Also another interesting note, the US drink-drive limit is one of the highest in the world. .040 I believe.


their BAC level is the exact same is ours at 0.08%, if anything their laws are much tougher than ours;
  • commercial drivers are subject to much stricter limits - 0.04%
  • some states like florida have zero tolerance for drivers under 21 - any detectable alcohol = ban.
So if anything, our laws are some of the worst in the world. In fact; i'm pretty sure it is the worst in the world.

If anything we should be following NI's lead with their plans (not yet implemented);
  • reducing BAC from 80 mg to 50mg for most drivers
  • young/inexperienced drivers - new 20mg limit
  • commercial drivers - new 20mg limit.


#15 Kaonashi

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 10:55 AM

As an aside for anyone interested, there is a thread which discusses the notion of what constitutes 'justice' - http://www.policespe...tly-is-justice/

I think the question that CJM is addressing to Killicksparker is 'why does punishment have to be part of the justice system - what does it achieve apart from vengeance?'. Perhaps I'm wrong, CJM will no doubt correct me if I am.

#16 MacGregor

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 04:34 PM

Where did I say punishment had no place in the justice system? :new_doh2:

I think punishment is a relatively important part of the justice system but if somebody can be turned into a perfectly functional member of society in fifteen years then why keep them in prison for fifty (time frames here are chosen at random)? That won't apply for all prisoners of course but it will for some. I see no sense in keeping people who pose no danger to the public and are capable of intergrating into society locked up. What does making somebody sit and stare at four walls all day achieve?

The biggest thing stopping us implementing something more progressive (and I would argue effective) is the public. We've had examples of people saying they don't want prisoners to have x, y or z in this thread already but what actually works is ignored in favour of what people want to think works. Short prison sentences versus community sentences is an example I've used before on this board but people don't want to believe a community sentence are more effective at reducing reoffending for some reason.

What I find interesting about the argument that "rehabilitation should be an afterthought" is that it leads to more crime. Wee Mental Davey goes into prison with a drug addiction and no (useful) skills and comes out with a drug addiction and no skills. Not exactly surprising when he reoffends is it?

#17 Stratos

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 11:41 PM

Sorry, but 45 years in prison is far too long for drink driving, prolific offender or not.

I'm also in two minds about lowering the drink drive limit for young and commercial drivers. I think it would confuse people, and it also means that the limit would go up once you reach a certain age, or that the limit would go up and down depending on whether you're at work or not.

How about a universally low limit? And one that actually gets enforced. I've heard of plenty of occasions where a banned driver has been caught drink driving and given... another ban? Driving whilst disqualified should result in a custodial sentence in my opinion.

#18 Übèrnamè

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 12:08 AM

their BAC level is the exact same is ours at 0.08%, if anything their laws are much tougher than ours


I wasn't comparing it to ours, I was comparing it to the worlds. Most other countries are much, much lower and we should follow suit. It was only a point to make as if you're 5 times the limit, it's much worse in the US since the limits higher.

I personally think a ban on any alcohol limit, or around 0.01/0.02 should implemented.





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