103 replies to this topic

[Radman]

I thought a lot of parts of the law were on what would the average person think? If the average person would presume they are police officers, then something is wrong. A small 5 year old child missing from its mother will not think to see if Police is written on the back of the coat. Again, I go back to my point of those that are partially sighted, tourists - Market police on the back of a jacket is going to cause problems with those streams of people.

Ah the good old Birmingham Market 'Police.'

For whatever reason West Mids lets them get away with it, its been pointed out to them time and time again but they never seem to want to take any action against them - the official story from Birmingham council is that the name is there because of 'tradition.'

Once upon a time the Market Police actually had Constable powers but this hasnt been so since sometime in the mid 60's (or 70's - I cant remember.)

[hampshiresaint]

Yeah but from a distance from the public eye it could be mistaken for one.

But if they look closely then they will realize they are not police so no issue. They could confuse a builder in high-vis as a police officer from a distance too.

[Burnsy2023]

I think I might do a quiz. Take the photos on here as well as others, mix them up with photos of real constables and see how many people get right. Would anyone be interested in seeing the results?

[hampshiresaint]

I think I might do a quiz. Take the photos on here as well as others, mix them up with photos of real constables and see how many people get right. Would anyone be interested in seeing the results?

Yup. I reckon I would get 100%

[Burnsy2023]

Yup. I reckon I would get 100%

I think most people here would, because they would recognize the photos. I'm thinking of non-police related people.

[Alex_101]

I think most people here would, because they would recognize the photos. I'm thinking of non-police related people.

I'd be interested to see the results of this.

[Burnsy2023]

I'd be interested to see the results of this.

Would you mind helping me find photos?

http://www.policespe...finding-photos/

[support]

Would you mind helping me find photos?

http://www.policespe...finding-photos/

Part of the problem if you can call it a problem is that a lot of security officers now wear Stab Vests, many of which come from the police as ex issue, and you to bear in mind that the police have at anyone time around 150000 sets of armour on issue across the UK Police services and this is constantly being replaced and the old models sold off for disposal and income generation.

Now more and more security companies are issuing there staff with ex police armour which in the mind of the public is more associated with police and can lead to confusion and spurious accusations of security personnel impersonating the police or looking police like.

Part of the problem is that we have 74 different police forces which issue 74 different types of uniform, from Met Police in White shirts, to Dorset Police in Navy Blue to Wiltshire Police in Black, everyone looks different apart form the word police on the kit and sometimes that is not easy to pick out.


Gloucestershire Police officers in Black.

Gloucestershire Wicking Shirts

Met Police Officers in White Shirts

Dorset Officer in Dark Navy Blue.

Added all of this is that certain departments also have different working kit and have at times used the same as the security industry, only difference is that word police.

If police forces don't want security to have armour, simple, stop selling the stuff off to companies which sell to the security industry.

[CmdKeen]

Do forces really sell off old armour that has passed its in service date? The armour bits have a useable life and should be replaced after that.

Security companies are able to buy new armour because they have need for it. Edinburgh Council have their environment wardens wearing stab vest as they go around handing out littering tickets. If they can get them then why not bouncers who are much more likely to face violence?

By all means consider laws banning body armour for people with convictions, but why should innocent people not be allowed to own it?

[support]

Do forces really sell off old armour that has passed its in service date? The armour bits have a useable life and should be replaced after that.

Security companies are able to buy new armour because they have need for it. Edinburgh Council have their environment wardens wearing stab vest as they go around handing out littering tickets. If they can get them then why not bouncers who are much more likely to face violence?

By all means consider laws banning body armour for people with convictions, but why should innocent people not be allowed to own it?

Some of the people in the security industry have spent precons, banning ownership to those with convictions would not be workable as a lot of armour is sold in army surplus shops, through the MOD DSA and by other sellers on the internet.

Police forces have sold so much armour in the past that it is now a train that can't easily be stopped.

http://www.militaryk...ody_armour.html

[Onlyme2008]

I wonder if the public would thank those on here, that think they are stupid.

Someone suggested some people can't read, your right, but that does not stop them talking,

Example:

"Are you a police officer?"

"No, I am security, do you require the police?" phone call every one happy.

or some one that can't speak english, so all police officer speak all lanuages do they?

Some also said about a missing child, the chances of that child coming across a police officer is remote, even very remote. So what do you want, that child approching some one who's at least had some checks or someone that has had no checks at all.

[HerrComm]

Some also said about a missing child, the chances of that child coming across a police officer is remote, even very remote. So what do you want, that child approching some one who's at least had some checks or someone that has had no checks at all.

I agree with this, I can't see why it would be a bad thing for a lost child to approach a security guard - they are there to ensure people's safety as well as security of the property most of the time.

[books]

NATO jumpers always get me doing double takes. There's one particular building in Kilburn where the security guards all have them with black clip ties.

[TCambs]

NATO jumpers always get me doing double takes. There's one particular building in Kilburn where the security guards all have them with black clip ties.

Well there's your giveaway they're not Met....

[AnthonyB]

Do forces really sell off old armour that has passed its in service date? The armour bits have a useable life and should be replaced after that.

You bet they do! Police Authotrities & the MoD have for decades had in common the fact that where possible instead of scrapping stuff they will try and flog off as much stuff as they can from a box of paperclips to a battleship.....

You could fully clothe and equip an infantry company, complete with radio communications, soft skinned and armoured transport, all from legitimate surplus - just add guns!

Similar has always occurred with police vehicles, clothing and equipment, whistles, collar numbers, tunics, shirts, belt kit, cuffs, radios, armour, etc - only badges and restricted stuff (gas, and batons) was taboo.

Police surplus was a great way to kit yourself out with cheap extra uniform for other organisations such as St. John Ambulance, just sew on the SJA badges......

.........which leads me neatly onto this:

Non police wearing a police type uniform is not new. Go to the 60's/70's and line up a Police Officer, Traffic Warden, St John Ambulance Officer, Local Authority Ambulance Driver, Fire Officer, Security Guard and a member of the Corps of Commissionaires and there will be a striking similarity in their appearance, all based around shirt, tie, black trousers, black tunic and a hat.....

[kiwipo]

I thought a lot of parts of the law were on what would the average person think? If the average person would presume they are police officers, then something is wrong. A small 5 year old child missing from its mother will not think to see if Police is written on the back of the coat. Again, I go back to my point of those that are partially sighted, tourists - Market police on the back of a jacket is going to cause problems with those streams of people.

So what do you think would happen if a lost five year old kid or a partially sighted person or a tourist approached a Canary Island Security guard or a market police officer and asked for help?
Do you think the security guard/market cop would refuse them help because they aren't a police officer.
"Go away kid, I'm not a policeman"
Part of the job of security in places like that is to assist and help people, if someone like a lost kid or a tourist asked them for police assistance then it's very likely the security guard would get the police for them. That would be his'her job wouldn't it?
the main reason they have security guards is there are no police available to patrol these areas and do the job, So as someone else suggested far better for a lost kid or a victim to approach a uniformed guard who can call for the police or whatever other help they may need, than someone else who may not be able to or want to help them.

Part of the problem if you can call it a problem is that a lot of security officers now wear Stab Vests, many of which come from the police as ex issue, and you to bear in mind that the police have at anyone time around 150000 sets of armour on issue across the UK Police services and this is constantly being replaced and the old models sold off for disposal and income generation.

Now more and more security companies are issuing there staff with ex police armour which in the mind of the public is more associated with police and can lead to confusion and spurious accusations of security personnel impersonating the police or looking police like.

Part of the problem is that we have 74 different police forces which issue 74 different types of uniform, from Met Police in White shirts, to Dorset Police in Navy Blue to Wiltshire Police in Black, everyone looks different apart form the word police on the kit and sometimes that is not easy to pick out.


Gloucestershire Police officers in Black.

Gloucestershire Wicking Shirts

Met Police Officers in White Shirts

Dorset Officer in Dark Navy Blue.

Added all of this is that certain departments also have different working kit and have at times used the same as the security industry, only difference is that word police.

If police forces don't want security to have armour, simple, stop selling the stuff off to companies which sell to the security industry.

Off topic, but doesn't that duty belt worn by the female officer look really uncomfortable?

[Dave SYP]

Not very flattering for the male officer(complete with Moobs)outside the Esso garage is it?

[CmdKeen]

Anthony - I know all sorts of kit gets sold off. The post I was questioning was specifically about body armour. Someone was suggesting the police were at fault for selling it on rather than the fact that is it just generally available to the public.

[support]

What I find interesting is that rank and file are very quick to have a go at Security who look anything like the police including wearing handcuffs or body armour, yet all too often the kit worn by the security is ex police issue and is sold off by the force to generate income.

I think what we need is common sense approach of if it doesn't say police it is not police item of uniform. I appreciate there is confusion, but that seems to be an issue for some officers.

[MrBlonde]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the idea behind the 'impersonating a policeofficer' offence was to stop people dressing up as one and adopting the 'authority' that goes with the Warrant card. It's not just about looking pretty in a nice blue uniform.

Security looking like a copper doesn't matter, providing they are not attempting to mislead the public in order to gain advantage.
And that doesn't include looking like one from 50 yards away, 10 feet away or even having to ask because you can't see properly, as long as the security person clearly states they are not police when asked to deal with something.

Security looking like a copper from a distance might have the advantage of moving along or preventing trouble as the scroat thinks he'll get nicked, and while you could argue he's gaining a protective advantage for the location he's working at, do you really care? a crime has been prevented, you've just avoided a load of paperwork and you can spend your time doing something constructive for the community.

A security guard who passes himself off as an officer in order to gain additional influence in a situation, assume greater powers, confiscate items, issue tickets and fines or gain personal advantage should be well and truly done, but someone wearing a uniform that provides confidence to the public or allows them to be spotted as 'someone who can help' shouldn't be an issue to anyone.

I seriously wonder about some people on here...

Edited by MrBlonde, 18 May 2012 - 12:40 PM.

[RedCap]

Looking at the photos it seems that apart from in London security guards are unlikely to be confiused with Police as they are are athletic, neat and tidy.... unlike the Police.

[support]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the idea behind the 'impersonating a policeofficer' offence was to stop people dressing up as one and adopting the 'authority' that goes with the Warrant card. It's not just about looking pretty in a nice blue uniform.

Security looking like a copper doesn't matter, providing they are not attempting to mislead the public in order to gain advantage.
And that doesn't include looking like one from 50 yards away, 10 feet away or even having to ask because you can't see properly, as long as the security person clearly states they are not police when asked to deal with something.

Security looking like a copper from a distance might have the advantage of moving along or preventing trouble as the scroat thinks he'll get nicked, and while you could argue he's gaining a protective advantage for the location he's working at, do you really care? a crime has been prevented, you've just avoided a load of paperwork and you can spend your time doing something constructive for the community.

A security guard who passes himself off as an officer in order to gain additional influence in a situation, assume greater powers, confiscate items, issue tickets and fines or gain personal advantage should be well and truly done, but someone wearing a uniform that provides confidence to the public or allows them to be spotted as 'someone who can help' shouldn't be an issue to anyone.

I seriously wonder about some people on here...

I very much agree with your points on this,

[Bart S]

Looking at the photos it seems that apart from in London security guards are unlikely to be confiused with Police as they are are athletic, neat and tidy.... unlike the Police.

Miaow! Saucer of milk for table 3!

[MikeBrum]

Just to show Birmingham Market 'Police' officer Andy, meeting Kate Middleton just after the riots, that room was full of West Mids rank and file (and somebody from Staffs very very high up too) - none of them said anything.

Why? Don't want to rock the boat perhaps, either way they're on very dodgy ground. I'm pretty certain the NPU fleece he wears has the normal police markings on it too, heaven forbid he ever takes his stabbie and hat off...

[Radman]

Just to show Birmingham Market 'Police' officer Andy, meeting Kate Middleton just after the riots, that room was full of West Mids rank and file (and somebody from Staffs very very high up too) - none of them said anything.

Why? Don't want to rock the boat perhaps, either way they're on very dodgy ground. I'm pretty certain the NPU fleece he wears has the normal police markings on it too, heaven forbid he ever takes his stabbie and hat off...

Tsk,

You'd have thought the Birmingham Market 'Police' would have gone tunic order for such a royal occasion.... Complete with local authority buttons....