78 replies to this topic

[ActivistApp]

http://worldnews.msn...s-total-in-2011

German police fired just 85 bullets total in 2011

By msnbc.com staff

German police officers fired a total of 85 bullets in 2011, 49 of which were warning shots, the German publication Der Spiegel reported. Officers fired 36 times at people, killing six and injuring 15. This is a slight decline from 2010, when seven people were killed and 17 injured. Ninety-six shots were fired in 2010.

Meanwhile, in the United States, The Atlantic reported that in April, 84 shots were fired at one murder suspect in Harlem, and another 90 at an unarmed man in Los Angeles.

"Our police officers are no thugs in uniform," Lorenz Caffier, interior minister of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, said at a press conference Tuesday.
"It is gratifying that the use of firearms by police officers against people is declining," Caffier added.

Would be interesting to see a league table for the developed world.

[Lucas North]

Yeah, that's exactly what worldwide policing needs... MORE bureaucracy

Maybe a league table for how many minutes officers spend in the loo would be good to?



Not being funny, but are you suggesting that officers, when faced with a dangerous criminal, should be thinking "Damn, I can't shoot this chainsaw-wielding maniac because we've already hit our bullet quota this month. I'll just have to disarm him with JUDO CHOP!"

The US is notorious for gun crime and Germany is not. This "league table" compares apples and pears.



EDIT: Spellingz

Edited by Lucas North, 12 May 2012 - 11:21 AM.

[bensonby]

The statistics mean nothing on their own: they need to be looked at in the wider circumstances of what sort I incidents they were used at, the number of firearms incidents (and how such incidents are recorded) in the respective countries, how many officers were on scene, the findings of subsequent court cases and enquiries and so on...

[CmdKeen]

Interesting that the Germans can fire warning shots...

Yet another reminder that other European countries (with Human Rights and all that) can have routinely armed police without everyone getting shot. But it is also worth pointing out that Germany shoots lots more people than the UK (as do lots of other EU countries per capita).

I take this to mean not that they are bad but that UK police officers don't shoot enough people. Instead we have videos of 30 cops and a bin v a man with a sword.

It is also worth looking at the differences (as bensoby just posted) in the situations. LA has had some famous shootouts, and in those instances you'd expect lots of rounds to be fired. There was a famous bank robbery (it inspired the opening of the SWAT film) where the suspects had assault rifles, huge amounts of ammo and body armour. And a willingness to shoot cops.
In Germany they'd do massive damage, in the UK it would be a massacre. In LA they might actually get stopped these days.

[shaunus1989]

I think what ActivistApp is trying to highlight here is the fact that a police force first and foremost is there to protect and serve the civil population rather than intimidate, threaten and harm. However, with that being said, there are dangerous criminals that would not think twice about letting off a load of rounds at a group of police officers or innocent bystanders and it is thanks to people who act in that manner that we require armed police officers on our streets. And how are armed officers supposed to be absoloutley certain that a suspect is not carrying a firearm. I think it's great that German officers fire off warning shots without the intent to cause harm.

Good post AA but do you not realise that the prime directive for any armed response unit is to come back with all of their ammunition, guns not fired and with the suspect in custody?

An armed detterent is ESSENTIAL for our police forces to opperate properly in todays world (its more violent, there are more guns on the streets and more people with a screw lose that are willing to kill). Maybe police officers in Mexico and Brazil should lay down their guns and fight the Narc and drug gangs with harsh language?

[ActivistApp]

I'm not sure what, if anything, I conclude from the figures.

But I find the discrepancy between the American and German extremes more than just thought provoking. I find the figures to be an fascinating objective measurable and I wonder if and how such stats might be used for good.

My suspicion is that a publicly available international 'league table' would be informative as a starting point for debate. I would expect it to be shaped as a bell curve, with best practice being a region to the left of centre.

Edited by ActivistApp, 12 May 2012 - 02:03 PM.

[sandbag]

I think it's great that German officers fire off warning shots without the intent to cause harm.

They may not intend to cause harm, but unless they're absolutely sure where their warning shots are going to end up that's what might end up happening.

[forensicsteve]

<sub>You are trained in the US to assume that every person you encounter is armed with or has access to a firearm. Not surprising since estimates offer between 40 and 80,000.000 in the US have a firearm. Total population is 300+ million. How does gun ownership (legal and illegal) and population in US compare to Germany? The US police don't make the rules regarding gun ownership, availability, and access. The rules do affect how they police however.

You want a thought provoking stat. Go to the FBI Uniformed Crime Reports and see how many US police officers are killed and fired upon per year. Then compare that to Germany. Not sure how you would find how many gun battles occur per year in the US, between police and suspects. I live very near New Orleans. According to the daily local news, the police get involved in multiple shootings almost daily.</sub>

Edited by forensicsteve, 13 May 2012 - 02:45 AM.

[Obsidian_Eclipse]

Interesting that the Germans can fire warning shots...

Yet another reminder that other European countries (with Human Rights and all that) can have routinely armed police without everyone getting shot. But it is also worth pointing out that Germany shoots lots more people than the UK (as do lots of other EU countries per capita).

I take this to mean not that they are bad but that UK police officers don't shoot enough people. Instead we have videos of 30 cops and a bin v a man with a sword.

It is also worth looking at the differences (as bensoby just posted) in the situations. LA has had some famous shootouts, and in those instances you'd expect lots of rounds to be fired. There was a famous bank robbery (it inspired the opening of the SWAT film) where the suspects had assault rifles, huge amounts of ammo and body armour. And a willingness to shoot cops.
In Germany they'd do massive damage, in the UK it would be a massacre. In LA they might actually get stopped these days.

I was reading a document comparing reserve police forces in Europe. German reserves are trained in 2 evening sessions at the station to handle a sidearm. I'll try and dig it out again as it makes interesting reading, however, it doesn't say many nice things about the Special Constabulary (poorly suggests that 13 days training isn't enough but then when you read about other reserve forces [and armed] have an average of 14 days!?)

[CmdKeen]

AA there are readily available data points to construct a "how many people to various forces shoot each year" league table - though not exactly the same as the number of rounds fired. Though one would hope that if shots are fired that someone (and the intended target at that!) would be hit.

I mentioned the warning shot idea as interesting as it runs entirely counter to the whole "reasonable force" setup we have in the UK (one that is apparently ECHR implied...). Firing a firearms is a use of lethal force, which is why you have to shoot to stop rather than "shoot to disable" / "shoot the gun out of their hand". Quite what would happen if a warning shot went wrong and hit an unintended target I dread to think - a murder charge I'd imagine. Though Germany presumably has different laws that allow such things.

As to the "best practice being left of centre"... Methinks that is your political view in general

That would be where the UK lies, given a ridiculously low number of people per capita are shot by the police. Which leads to a rather ridiculous situation where every firearms incident is investigated as if the people wielding the firearms are German reservists or rural American deputies that can't be trusted to not be incompetent or corrupt. It leaves no middle ground between unarmed cops and officers so tooled up they give rise to "paramilitary" claims.
What I would be interested in is the amount of knife crime on cops in other, armed, European countries v the mainland UK and Republic of Ireland which are routinely unarmed.

PS. There is a massive problem anyway. Rounds discharged or people shot isn't just a comparison of "best practice" of firearms policing, or indeed policing in general. It is far more likely to be reflective of the type of crime and criminal prevalent in that country.

[MacGregor]

I'd love to know what the protocol for the warning shots is in Germany, I'm not going to fire a gun at anything I don't intend to hit. In a built up area the possibility for things to go badly wrong seems fairly high.

Slightly tangential to this discussion, the whole situation regarding firearms in Great Britian is utterly ridiculous. Responsible, law abiding adults are severly limited in what firearms they may possess for completely arbitrary reasons that are the result of poorly thought out, knee jerk policy decisions. Very few legally held firearms are used in crimes and yet responsible shooters are unfairly penalised to appease those who think guns are evil. I think what Germany shows us is that adults can be trusted with firearms and so can the police, unfortunately that idea doesn't seem to be so popular here.

[rosco]

I'd love to know what the protocol for the warning shots is in Germany, I'm not going to fire a gun at anything I don't intend to hit. In a built up area the possibility for things to go badly wrong seems fairly high.

Slightly tangential to this discussion, the whole situation regarding firearms in Great Britian is utterly ridiculous. Responsible, law abiding adults are severly limited in what firearms they may possess for completely arbitrary reasons that are the result of poorly thought out, knee jerk policy decisions. Very few legally held firearms are used in crimes and yet responsible shooters are unfairly penalised to appease those who think guns are evil. I think what Germany shows us is that adults can be trusted with firearms and so can the police, unfortunately that idea doesn't seem to be so popular here.

Not sure what you are basing your comparison on Germany to conclude that Great Britain situation is ridiculous.

A quick look on Wikipedia for German gun law (althoguh not a definitive source) seems to make it sound not that dissimilar to ours, with the only exception being the police being routinely armed there and not here. I'd actually say that the article sounds like an argument for disarming the German Police generally, seeing as they seem to need to use their weapons so infrequently.

[CmdKeen]

Slightly tangential to this discussion, the whole situation regarding firearms in Great Britian is utterly ridiculous. Responsible, law abiding adults are severly limited in what firearms they may possess for completely arbitrary reasons that are the result of poorly thought out, knee jerk policy decisions. Very few legally held firearms are used in crimes and yet responsible shooters are unfairly penalised to appease those who think guns are evil. I think what Germany shows us is that adults can be trusted with firearms and so can the police, unfortunately that idea doesn't seem to be so popular here.

I absolutely agree. Except we're also in the rather stupid position whereby shotguns are still relatively easy to come by, especially in Scotland where approx 1% of the population are hold a licence.

And shotguns are bloody scary things if someone decides to try and shoot a human being.

In terms of Germany - legal firearms mean nothing. They've had several school shooting in recent years. And you can damn well be sure if we had that level of such things there would be calls to have every cop routinely armed. Because I doubt you could sit outside your local primary for 30+ minutes waiting for the sole ARV to turn up and setup containment.

Plus Germany has much greater potential for illegal firearms. Firstly post the wall coming down you had all the old Soviety bloc stuff readily available from the East. Now you have a lovely trade in firearms from Eastern Europe.

On a slightly different note, especially for AA. Der Polizei have a reputation for taking no nonsense from anyone and escalating up the use of force charts pretty quickly. Life on Mars quickly. So perhaps another reason they don't have to fire so many rounds is that a German cop telling you to do something comes from a culture where backchatting the police isn't something you learn to do...

[MacGregor]

I don't really see an issue with shotguns being easy to get hold of, very few legally held shotguns are used in crimes each year. What compelling reason is there to further restrict ownership of a shotgun other than they might be scary?

[CmdKeen]

I don't really see an issue with shotguns being easy to get hold of, very few legally held shotguns are used in crimes each year. What compelling reason is there to further restrict ownership of a shotgun other than they might be scary?

I'm not saying that they should be banned or even further restricted. Just that there is a degree of nonsense between a handgun ban that is so strictly enforced and what amounts to a relatively permissive shotgun licensing policy.

Shotguns are dangerous and scary because they cause much nastier wounds than a handgun and have a much greater stopping power. Instead of a single round that will quite possibly go straight through you have a lower velocity muti track wound pattern.

Edited by Hades, 13 May 2012 - 09:48 PM.
Removed part about body armour protection levels

[MacGregor]

Not sure what you are basing your comparison on Germany to conclude that Great Britain situation is ridiculous.

A quick look on Wikipedia for German gun law (althoguh not a definitive source) seems to make it sound not that dissimilar to ours, with the only exception being the police being routinely armed there and not here. I'd actually say that the article sounds like an argument for disarming the German Police generally, seeing as they seem to need to use their weapons so infrequently.

It is ridiculous, I'm trusted with a rifle chambered in 7.62 NATO or other similarly powerful catridges but apparently not fit to own a pistol. What justification is there for that? German gun laws are not as strict as ours whatever way you try and spin it and they are a lot more pragmatic in their approach to things. I would happily attend a few classes if it meant I was able to own a pistol and further develop my skills in a sport I love.

I'm not saying that they should be banned or even further restricted. Just that there is a degree of nonsense between a handgun ban that is so strictly enforced and what amounts to a relatively permissive shotgun licensing policy.

Shotguns are dangerous and scary because they cause much nastier wounds than a handgun and have a much greater stopping power. Instead of a single round that will quite possibly go straight through you have a lower velocity muti track wound pattern.

Ok, fair enough, I understand that now. This is why I think our gun laws are so arbitary (I understand a pistol is much more easily concealed) because they only hurt responsible shooters. The competitive pistol shooting scene has been killed off because of scare mongering with no sensible basis.

Edited by Hades, 13 May 2012 - 09:49 PM.
As above

[goldfgy]

I'm surprised to see that German police are allowed to fire warning shots. I don't believe that any American police forces allow that.

[gsdk9]

Yeah they tend to frown on that here.

[forensicsteve]

Source: http://www.laaw.com/sig_warnshot.htm
Regarding warning shots which are different from signal shots.

May impact an innocent bystander
May impact a suspect when deadly force is not justified
May precipitate another officer to shoot someone unjustifiably
May cause the recipient of the warning shot to escalate his/her use of force against the officer(s)
May impact on property causing damage
An officer who improperly shoots a person (accidentally or otherwise) may try to claim that the impacting shot was a warning shot
May engender fear in innocent bystanders

[MrBlonde]

To be fair, US firearms ability outside SWAT is generally rubbish - loads of officers in Smallville USA can't hit a barn door from 20 feet away; there's loads of examples of officers emptying a whole magazine at a threat and not hitting with a single shot under stress, while they are pretty capable on the range shooting at paper.
I'm sure Steve Collins can give you some great anecdotes next time he's on the forum.
I suspect German training is more like our own - stress scenarios against video targets - shoot/don't shoot training etc and the Ameriacan mindset when it comes to firearms is much more blasé as they've grown up with guns as everyday objects and this shows in the way they use them

[CmdKeen]

I suspect German training is more like our own - stress scenarios against video targets - shoot/don't shoot training etc and the Ameriacan mindset when it comes to firearms is much more blasé as they've grown up with guns as everyday objects and this shows in the way they use them

Obsidian has already posted that the German reserve forces get 2 evenings on how to safely handle a gun. UK AFOs are trained to a very high standard - compared to even specialist units in other countries.

I don't know about your blasé comment. One would hope that people who grow up around guns know their danger factor and treat them more responsibly than countries where you aren't really exposed to them. Given there are AFOs at a certain northern force currently under investigation around photos of them behaving like prats with their guns I would suggest that it is perfectly capable to become blasé with that level of training as well.

[gsdk9]

And we do get video scenarios here also. Don't lump all "small town officers" together!!!! You have morons in every venue. Personally I spend a lot of time on my own unpaid with my various duty guns, pistol, rifle and shotgun.

[forensicsteve]

"To be fair, US firearms ability outside SWAT is generally rubbish - loads of officers in Smallville USA can't hit a barn door from 20 feet away"

Starting a statement with to be fair, does not make the statement a fair one. There are a whole lot more police to train with firearms in the US than UK, since close to 100% of US officers are required to carry a firearm. What % of UK officers are trained for carrying a firearm on their person, as part of their daily kit.

As gsdk9 stated, thousands of US officers are trained for firearms on video simulators. But with about 800,000 law enforcement officers, not all will have access to the best training.

Edited by forensicsteve, 15 May 2012 - 12:41 PM.

[Prolixia]

In response to the comments regarding shotguns and rifles, I personally think there is actually quite a good rationale for licensing these whilst prohibiting (most) handguns:

• Shotguns and rifles are used for hunting and pest control
  
• Shotguns and rifles (of the types licensed) can fire only one or two shots without reloading
  
• Shotguns and rifles are hard to conceal about your person

None of the above apply to handguns, which are generally easy to conceal, capable of firing several shots without reloading, and other than sport have no legitimate purpose.

With regards to the OP, it's interesting to see the numbers, but I agree that it's unfair to compare Germany and the US. However a very interesting alternative comparison is to look at gun crime in the US and in Switzerland - it's much lower in Switzerland but the proportion of the population who own a gun is about the highest in the world (even higher than the US). The majority of guns in Switzerland are rifles and not handguns - they're issued during national service and kept at home afterwards.

[MacGregor]

I don't regularly use shotguns or rifles for hunting and pest control (although I do hunt from time to time). I sometimes shoot with rifles that can hold ten rounds in the magazine (I can suggest the Home Office Firearms Guidance from 2002 if you need to brush up on your knowledge of firearms legislation). Your first two points aren't really true but I will give you your third.