80 replies to this topic

[Lucas North]

I've just seen a picture on the net of a "doctors car" and it got me thinking...

When I was going through my driving lessons & learning the Highway Code, I was taught that green flashing lights are for the use of doctors-on-call only.


However...

Can anyone here actually explain the point in them? I have never seen a vehicle "on greens" except for the likes of HEMS, but they have blue lightbars anyway (with a bit of green chucked in - barely noticable).

I've also heard that driving on green lights is more of a "please move out the way" rather than a "get out of my way" and that you cannot run red lights, etc. If this is so, surely they're not that much different from ambers, in that you can't make progress?


Is there a certain training requirement for the use of these lights? Also, what would the offence be if using green lights without proper authorisation?


(Mod note: wasn't really sure where to put this, so feel free to move)

[Blizzard1986]

Other lights

Doctors on emergency calls are allowed a green flashing light, but it grants no privileges or exemptions from traffic laws.

From the ever knowledgeable wikipedia http://en.wikipedia....ehicle_lighting its about 2 thirds of the way down under united kingdom.

Edited by Blizzard1986, 16 April 2012 - 06:47 AM.

[Pablo Montoya]

That got me thinking; if a cop seen a doctor in a 'green light vehicle' driving through traffic faster than the limit permitted, possibly driving through red lights (with careful consideration) would they consider stopping the driver for traffic offences or leave it as the doctor will (ahem, should) be urgently required, possibly at the scene of a RTA - hence the faster driving.

Any opinions folks?

[Lucas North]

Well this is it - if "driving on greens" does NOT exempt you from traffic laws... what's the bloody point?

I also think it's confusing for Joe Bloggs public: e.g. if you're stuck in traffic on a dual carriageway and you see a green flashing light, should everyone "Do The Moses" and let it through? Part of me says yes, because it's obviously a doctor trying to get to someone in need, but the other part of me says no "because they'd be commiting an offence by making progress."

It's just like the age-old "do I run a red light to let an emergency vehicle through?" debate. On the one hand you shouldn't because you're committing an offence, but on the other hand you're stopping 999 personnel from getting to a scene

[Better than Jeebs]

You can still make progress and not use the exemptions, so driving on a green light should be no different. In the way of people letting you pass or pulling over so you can overtake, doesn't necessarily mean you are speeding when you over take them, and you can wait at traffic lights. Most Coastguard teams are blue light vehicles, but are not permitted in law to use blue light exemptions such as treating red lights as a give way and breaking the speed limit, but they use them to skip the queues in traffic. (On a personnal note I think Coastguard teams not having the exemptions is ridiculous, but there you go!)

[BigCopSmallTown]

You may or may not be aware that not all blue light users are exempt from coplying with the road traffic act - for example HM Coastguard must comply with the highway code.

[Killicksparker]

What if the driver using green lights has done a blue light course

(Its not such a 'Oh, for goodness sake' question - quite a few of the drivers of these vehicles in our area are ex-traffic officers)

On another point, is there actually a 'Green light course'?

[oddbod]

What if the driver using green lights has done a blue light course

Then they can drive on cyan lights, basic physics

[Killicksparker]

Then they can drive on cyan lights, basic physics

I don't think cyan even existed when I went to school - it was turquoise (and the only people who called it turquoise were male Art teachers in flowery shirts, bell bottoms and earrings! The rest of us just said 'Sort of light blue')

[BigCopSmallTown]

There is no legal exemptions for green light users and considering Advanced TPAC trained police officers who do have legal exemptions are being stuck on for dangerous driving by the CPS I would suggest that the green light users would do well to stick to the speed limits and use the green lights to aid their progress should people be inclined to let them past

You can still make progress and not use the exemptions, so driving on a green light should be no different. In the way of people letting you pass or pulling over so you can overtake, doesn't necessarily mean you are speeding when you over take them, and you can wait at traffic lights. Most Coastguard teams are blue light vehicles, but are not permitted in law to use blue light exemptions such as treating red lights as a give way and breaking the speed limit, but they use them to skip the queues in traffic. (On a personnal note I think Coastguard teams not having the exemptions is ridiculous, but there you go!)

If the HMCG "Blue Light Training" is the same 30 minute DVD as when I was in then I can see why they cant have the exemptions!

[AnthonyB]

You must remember that green lights date back to a day when there was last traffic and more courteous drivers.

Although permitted for any urgent call they came into their own in the late with the rise of BASICS type schemes originating from the original North Yorkshire Road Accident Care Scheme pioneered by Dr Kenneth Easton.

The original doctors light was a flat lensed beacon with a green front and red rear lens that flashed, followed by traditional acorn beacons with split lens and later all green.

It's use was/is:
- A courtesy light requesting road users to safely allow the doctor to make progress
- A scene safety light (RTC's would pften be in poorly lit areas and scene management was more rudimentary back then)
- An identification light so emergency services knew the plain car approaching was the doctor and not some ordinary motorist and they would be let straight through any cordon

Although exemptions were not permitted on paper several BASICS doctors did add sirens, headlight flashers, etc with the tacit approval of their police or ambulance service and BASICS introduced driver training courses over the years.

London was the first area to officially allow BASICS doctors to use blues and exemptions in the 90's after several key incidents and as most BASICS activations are now directly under the auspices of the local ambulance service the 'ambulance purposes' exemption is used to permit a more widespread use of blues and two's (along with training) by doctors.

The biggest user of fully green lightbars/beacons are out of hours GP co-operatives (& similar) who do not do immediate care work like BASICS, but nevertheless can go to potentially serious cases, however in practice they rarely if ever use their lights unless they encounter and RTC.

I've only once ever seen a doctor with a green beacon in use outside the BASICS arena of operations and they drove normal speed and stopped at red lights as per thr rules.

[Lucas North]

Excellent responses - cheers guys.

So what is the offence of using a green light without authority? And would it be an FPN? (Discounting any other offences such as careless driving whilst using the light - I'm just after the individual offence).

[Damsel]

When you say without authority, do you mean if you're not a GMC registered doctor?

If so, It'd be an offence under the RVLR Part 2, 11 (2)(m) so it'd probably be a straight report for summons, as I don't think there is an FPN code for that.

[Lucas North]

When you say without authority, do you mean if you're not a GMC registered doctor?

If so, It'd be an offence under the RVLR Part 2, 11 (2)(m) so it'd probably be a straight report for summons, as I don't think there is an FPN code for that.

Well yes & no - you don't have to be a doctor to drive on greens - some have drivers.

Really? I thought there was an FPN for naughty lighting? Well, you learn something new every day

[SBG]

HEMS - now thats an interesting question - I guess (and it is only a guess) that they are using the exemptions for ambulances and not doctors - but because they are doctors they need green lights also? It does make it easier when at a scene to see them comig though.

[Myky]

HEMS - now thats an interesting question - I guess (and it is only a guess) that they are using the exemptions for ambulances and not doctors - but because they are doctors they need green lights also? It does make it easier when at a scene to see them comig though.

I Dont think it matters who is driving per se but what The vehicle's purpose. HEMS Doctors are nothing more than really rather highly trained ambulance staff at the end of the day working for an ambulance charity. After all it doesn't matter whether a paramedic is driving or a basic first aider with a c1 licence they are entitled to use blue lights on the ambulance. It wouldn't be any different, the difference comes from what the vehicle is used for. Like anthonyB said the use of green light is outdated and many BASICS doctors have blue lights now

[Damsel]

Well yes & no - you don't have to be a doctor to drive on greens - some have drivers.

I realise that, but you do have to have a GMC registered doctor in the car. And having one tied up and shoved in the boot doesn't count.

I thought there was an FPN for naughty lighting? Well, you learn something new every day

I can find FPN codes for "showing other than red light to the rear", and "unauthorised use of a blue warning beacon", but I can't find green beacons/warning lights specifically mentioned anywhere apart from RVLR

[Better than Jeebs]

Big cop small town, I agree their training is not the best, however the point I was trying to make is they should be allowed, if that means improving the trAining then so be it. On a separate note, was the DVD any good?

[BigCopSmallTown]

Big cop small town, I agree their training is not the best, however the point I was trying to make is they should be allowed, if that means improving the trAining then so be it. On a separate note, was the DVD any good?

Compared to a standard course to be able to respond safely and progressively - No! IMO the driver training is poor considering the trucks they drive are generally weighty (with a boot full of cliff resuce gear), high centre of gravity they should have a standard course before being auhtorised for blues.

[smileynialley]

displaying lights other than white at the front of your car?

[BigCopSmallTown]

The offence actually comes under the section of showing a light other than red to the rear of the vehicle under Regullation 11 (2)(m) of RVLR 89.

[Damsel]

It'd be an offence under the RVLR Part 2, 11 (2)(m) so it'd probably be a straight report for summons, as I don't think there is an FPN code for that.

The offence actually comes under the section of showing a light other than red to the rear of the vehicle under Regullation 11 (2)(m) of RVLR 89.

Blimey, there's an echo in here

[BigCopSmallTown]

You must have posted just after i did! Damn techonology!

[Norcon Hobby Bobby]

It would be quite petty to stop a Doctor going to an emergency call for slightly exceeding the speed limit. I personally would turn a blind eye to it. However running red lights and doing handbrake turns perhaps not

[support]

There is similar issues around vehicles used for the carriage of transplant organs where a driver was recently prosecuted on blues carrying an emergency organ transplant tissue.