57 replies to this topic

[Dovahkiin]

I know someone who think's he is stronger then the police lol

[MerseyLLB]

I have been present at jobs where I can totally see that individual police officer's actions have ruined generally 'good' peoples perceptions of the police.

I have been to jobs where anti-police people have been extremely grateful for the manner of our actions and have then totally changed their attitude. One that I remember is a lad that we dealt with a station for trespass. We had seen him before and he used to give us the scowl etc. After we had dealt with him and explained WHY trespass was taken so seriously he was actually very pro-police. So much so that, even with his 'hard nut' mates around he would come and talk to me if he saw me on any of the stations up and down the line.

The mantra 'If you have a good experience you tell 2 or 3 people, if you have a bad one you tell 10' can explain why people who have never had an interaction with the police hold them in a dim light.

I was also told (I don't know if the figures are true but the sentiment seems to fit) the average person only speaks to a police officer once in 10 years and so if you meet an incompetent/rude/'corrupt' copper then you will cradle that view right up until your next interaction (if any).

[MetPaul]

Why Are The Police Hated So Much?

In a nutshell, because people who aren't used to it, don't like being told NO.
I don't believe there are that many people who actually hate the Police. Dislike or disgruntled with maybe, but out and out hate, relatively very few.

[sparkydale]

Considering the scope of the Winsor Part 2 proposals, should the polfed try harder to counter this "perceived hatred" of the police? A lot of the news stories (and certainly most of the front page stories) have a negative slant to the police and IF significant public action is going to occur, then getting the masses on side will be essential.

I accept that some people don't hate the police and some do hate the police. There are many that are just plain indifferent to the actual job. If a positive 'Could You' campaign was run again, then I think we'd get a lot more public support.

e.g. Ad1: Actors: Car driving down the road, person on mobile. Car drives past a parked up police car. PC in car looks and sees the car.
Question on Screen: What would you do? Pull the car over and give a ticket or let them drive on by - it's daytime and you're waiting for a real criminal...
Pause for other ads
Ad1 (cont): Real live footage: Car in field on roof. Car in side of other car. Ambulance on scene. School in mourning etc.
Text: What would you do?

And so on. It would be easy (but I'll accept expensive) to have loads of these type of scenarios.
e.g. Teenage suicide (4 hours of paperwork) and then you still need to carry on; fight on a saturday night, then another fight, then another fight etc. Drugs warrant and then show the children affected etc. RTC and then the death message etc. Would you do that? And for the salary equivalent to a "clownmeat" fast food manager?

There is not enough 'cause and effect' shown for the public to unequivocally understand the job and to want to like us. Fire and Ambulance both only have a positive side, there is an obvious problem and they are the obvious solution. We don't have that luxury. Often our job is nebulous and the laws we police are many, varied and can often be unpopular (we get the flack for this too, despite it being parliament that creates law).

[jay bird]

I am a member of the public & I dont hate the police but I know several people who do. Usually over one bad experience or even hearsay of other people's bad experiences. A guy at work was ranting & raving over a minor incident with the police & calling all officer's names & I said "my son is a police officer & my partner a special" he then back tracked & said "oh well maybe they're not ALL like that"!! One bad experience & you're all tarred with the same brush!

[Adler]

I think there are some basic reasons why the general public appear to take a dim view of police -

- The police are the only people in the land legally able to take away some of your rights (such as liberty) AND YOU CAN'T ARGUE (even if you have money/are a sports/pop/some-other-kind-of 'star')
- The police are only taking away said liberty if you have been caught doing something wrong (generally, although some mistakes are made. Cos, damn, police officers ARE human) - and who likes getting caught??
- The media sells bad news. Because, apparently, people don't buy papers to read good news. So, what stories pervade in the news regarding police?? Stories where the police have done something wrong/been incompetent/not been good enough to have had two heads, four sets of eyes and the ability to be in more than one place at the same time. (This is a huge pet-peev of mine cos police officers commit all sorts of acts of bravery and receive all sorts of abuse (physical and otherwise), including being stabbed & it RARELY gets publicised)

In addition, as previously mentioned on this thread, the fact that various governments have forced target chasing (& therefore enforcing officers into a situation of being unable to use discretion) has not helped at all.
For me, you can not target policing/teaching/nursing, etc. There are soooo many factors affecting these kinds of jobs & all governments are ever bothered about is how to "measure".

Having said all that, there are a lot of people out there who either think the police are 'fine' or have virtually no view of them ("I'll think about the police when I need them").

I personally have utmost respect for the police. They do a very difficult job, under difficult restraints & ceaseless paperwork - and while being under constant scrutiny/meddling.

[SC Meerkat]

It's because we know a magic word that everyone else seems to have either forgotten, or become incapable of saying.


No

[little old me]

<sub>I find it's not hate but disrespect. I Know people that talk about the police and what they have said and how thay have got away with traffic offences and then go on to say the things like the police are mugs, To which I pointed out 'when your house get burgled or your car is nicked who are you going to call?'

I don't know exactly where this disrespect comes from but I believe it to be the TV shows and school visits. They all show a human side of the police force and that can be seen as a weakness if we all look like the bloke down the road.</sub>

[pottheed]

In my opinion - It is our job to prosecute people (with minimum discretion) to the maximum extent of the law. By definition we will be hated, not loved by everyone.

When people tell me this happened to me, or that happened to me at the hands of the police. My reply is "I don't know whether that has happened or not, but have you never not liked anyone before in your own personal?, Just make your own judgement on the officer, not previous experiences"

That usually makes them think a bit.

[Gladstoneboots]

No one likes being told what to do - not even the Police !

[callsign-kid]

Think what you first have to realise is that policing is an interesting job and people (who form the public) are interested in it. You don't very often see plumbers in the newspaper. Our work is different, it does make for interesting reading and people enjoy reading about it. As someone else has pointed out there's no news like bad news. So the majority of articles will be negative (about anything) so therefore the majority of news articles about police will be negative. Whatever they may say people are influenced by the media. I recently had to explain to a daily mail reading family member that police pensions are far from being gold plated. They were under the impression that the pension was in some way free.

So you have the media. Then you have people who are caught for "minor motoring matters" and they don't like being caught hence the "why aren't you out catching real criminals." line. Its a deflection. They are deflecting attention from themselves. They often don't like to accept that what they are doing id dangerous. One motorist said to me "why don't you go and catch drunk drivers" (she was on her phone) I explained that being on your phone can be as bad as being at the legal limit for alcohol and that she had just driven past a school which was just kicking out to which she seemed oblivious. I don't think she liked me very much. But as Paul points out it is very often only the police who say no to people or say actually that isn't just a little bit naughty, that is unacceptable.

You tend to hear those that shout loudest. It tends to be those with negative views who do. If you're positive about something you don't tend to talk about it quite so much. Hence why, I suppose, people enjoy negative news articles quite a much as they do.

[Dave SYP]

Or it could be to do with certain bad experiences people have had with the police despite the said person being a victim,

I can name three incidents in which in which a certain shire force have possibly not lived up to the expectation, one of which was a person at a party who began viscously assaulting a number of people and was eventually pinned to the ground by myself and another... said force did not attend until 1 hour after the first 999 call despite 6 different persons calling off of different phones during the person's rampage, one of the sgts who turned up blamed "finite resources"

Not necessarily the police's fault but I can see how people can become frustrated or annoyed, especially if they had never been involved with the police before and that was the response...

I would certainly agree with you on this. If, as police officers we get this sort of response from our own, how can we expect Joe Public to feel confident about the service they receive and view the police positively?

[MacGregor]

I certainly know why some sections of the public hate the police, photographers in particular. Go on just about any UK based photography forum and there will be reams of stories about police officers suggesting you can't take photographs in a public place and various other things. I realise this is not particularly prevalent but having had a similar experience myself I must admit it does leave a rather poor impression at times. We really need to get a handle on this problem, demonising people enjoying their hobby doesn't do anybody any favours whatsoever.

[ActivistApp]

CJM - recent example: http://www.guardian....rrested-filming

[Police Constable 1]

CJM - recent example: http://www.guardian....rrested-filming

AA you seem to be quite anti police at the min, maybe you could view the topic of the officers arresting the murder suspect and allow us to note your opinions, will you be of high praise or criticism?

[Giraffe]

CJM - recent example: http://www.guardian....rrested-filming

I remember seeing that video before, and the PCSO was an idiot and should be disciplined. I think the amount of bad stories about police and photographers is disproportionate though - firstly because inevitably most run ins between police and photographers are captured on film (and so get more publicity), and also because I think most police officers are aware that there are no laws against general photography.

The way some photographers go on you'd think they were all victims of police oppression etc, when the reality of it is that some photographers just escalate the situation unnecessarily by being devoid of common sense and by winding up the police and members of the public. That's not an excuse for the police behaving in the way that PCSO did, but I don't think these incidents are as common as is made out by some on here.

[MacGregor]

Who suggested they were common occurences out of interest?

[ActivistApp]

Giraffe - I agree with everything you say in #41.

PC1 - I offer an alternative view. I hope it brings a little balance to the forum. You may prefer to close your ears to such "heretical" views - but that's your decision.

The video shows a swaggering gum-chewing hands-in-pockets PCSO together with witness comments about a regular police officer who, in the witness's opinion, was quite nasty to her. Sure, she's assertive in the way she responds, and is not as compliant as PCSO macho would like her to be - but that's not illegal. Be aware that the video went viral - and I suggest that most viewers would have been slightly irritated by her attitude but absolutely astonished by the PCSO's demeanour and manner.

Note again the title of this thread and CJM's comments in #38. PC1 - do you resent me posting #39?

Edited by ActivistApp, 03 April 2012 - 04:03 PM.

[Giraffe]

Who suggested they were common occurences out of interest?

I was referring to the number of threads we've had on this subject in general. I wasn't suggesting anyone in this thread has suggested it's a common occurrence. You yourself said that in photography forums there are 'reams of stories' on the subject, which along with the plethora of threads we've had on here in my opinion backs up my view that the notion that photographers are discriminated against is inaccurate and disproportionate.

The PCSO in Activist App's article was an idiot, but he is not representative of the majority of officers/PCSOs, and not in my view a valid reason to hate the police.

[ActivistApp]

A relevant article from page 32 of yesterday's Grauniad. Some interesting observations that may seed further discussion on the thread topic:-

Britain's police are at war with the people
Police officers are increasingly trained to see the community as the enemy. They've forgotten that they are there to serve us

David Gilbertson

I felt a profound sense of frustration when I read Saturday's Guardian account of another "police racism" allegation against the Metropolitan police. The circumstances of the case, in which an officer is apparently recorded racially abusing a man he's just arrested – are still the subject of investigation. But as someone who spent most of his adult life in policing, two issues are as plain as a pikestaff. First, yet again, there seems to have been an almost total absence of leadership and supervision of junior officers; second, the impact on "real" policing will be profound.

Last Thursday, in Tottenham, I gave the 2012 Bernie Grant Memorial Lecture. To an audience still shell-shocked by the damage to their homes and livelihoods wrought by the riots and failure of policing last August, my theme was the urgent need for the police, particularly in urban communities, to rediscover a service ethos that had been sacrificed on the altar of so-called management efficiency over the past 15 years. In any liberal democracy, policing must be by consent, and you lose that consent immediately if you alienate the community and treat them as the enemy.

Confrontational – yet frightened and defensive – officers are nowadays trained to see the public as a threat to their very existence. Preventive patrolling has been abandoned – notwithstanding the soothing and wholly false spin of the Met, which continually we still have "bobbies on the beat". Few such officers have been deployed for at least 10 years, and their barely visible replacement – comprised largely of police community support officers, are but a pale imitation of what people expect and deserve.

From Stephen Lawrence to Mark Duggan; from the kettling of peaceful protesters, to the riots of last year; from the manifest incompetence of the first phone-hacking inquiry to allegations of corruption at the Leveson inquiry – a path has been beaten towards the edge of a precipice, and it is time for those concerned about the vital role of policing to challenge what is happening.

In some respects we only have ourselves to blame. People too often accept what they are told by police leaders and politicians, and seldom demand policing be accountable at all times and at every level of interaction. Senior officers continually tell us policing is a complex, dangerous occupation, requiring an almost priest-like sense of vocation and superhuman courage. Hence the pseudo-military terminology applied to most activity, with reference to the "frontline", as if officers spent all their working hours in an environment comparable to the first world war trenches.

But what is missing from an environment where the police regard themselves almost as an army of occupation is any sense of community, any sense that they are part of us. This fundamental attitudinal change is a comparatively recent feature of policing and has undermined the trusted model of policing in our communities developed over many decades. Something has to change – and quickly.

For what is beyond doubt is that the people who suffer most at the hands of drug-dealers, knife crime and "gangsta" gunmen are those at the bottom of the social pyramid. Most are decent people who just want to work, bring up their children, and live their lives unmolested; yet they are regarded by the police as a dangerous underclass who can only be dealt with aggressively.

What incentive will there be for any black British mother on a sink estate to search out her local police to express concern about her son or his friends? Who can be surprised at any hard-working black member of our society taking the view that an organisation that allegedly views him or her as a "n****r" isn't worth their trust? I hope the Met commissioner has this incident at the top of his agenda as his management board meets on Monday.

[Gallifrey]

I'm going to be very blunt in my answer here, but I think we alienate the public with the obsession with figures and targets, leading to attempts to get easy detections and tickets rather than use discretion and common sense as we used to do. This rolls over into the mindset, seemingly ingrained amongst some in this job(particularly in the Met where they are almost unaware that there is a way of dealing with suspects without arrest) and I have seen on this forum that there is a significant minority that believe, the only way to investigate something is to arrest the suspect, the new powers of arrest, well no longer new they have been in since 2006, should mean that we only arrest where there is a necessity to do so, it infuriates me when you see officers bringing in people under the seemingly catch all necessity of prompt and effective investigation. I have heard it being justified by some members of the Special Constabulary because they weren't trained to interview, therefore they had to arrest under prompt and effective investigation, balderdash!!!

Anyone can do a quick contemporaneous interview caution + 2 at the scene. If we know the address of someone for a straight forward common assault, where no one is drunk and all is calm upon our arrival why arrest?, when we can interview and report for summons. There are a lot of officers that need to realise that arrest is merely a tool for investigation and not the only one we have!!! Senior officers need to realise, that they cannot order a constable to arrest someone, it is up to their individual discretion,likewise PCs should not blindly do as they are told but only arrest when they are happy to do so, by which they are happy with the grounds and the justification for the necessity of that arrest.

Edited by Gallifrey, 03 April 2012 - 04:31 PM.

[MacGregor]

I was referring to the number of threads we've had on this subject in general. I wasn't suggesting anyone in this thread has suggested it's a common occurrence. You yourself said that in photography forums there are 'reams of stories' on the subject, which along with the plethora of threads we've had on here in my opinion backs up my view that the notion that photographers are discriminated against is inaccurate and disproportionate.

The PCSO in Activist App's article was an idiot, but he is not representative of the majority of officers/PCSOs, and not in my view a valid reason to hate the police.

I think this "it isn't a valid reason in my opinion" thing can be a little unhelpful. It is a reason ("valid" or not) why some people dislike the police so surely that is valid and we should endeavour to challenge that school of thought rather than suggest it is somehow stupid or worthless because you don't agree.

Just about every single member of the photography club I attend has had at least one encounter with the police and whilst the vast majority have been good those that haven't been quite so positive are definitely cause for concern. I want my fellow shutterbugs to have a positive experience when they interect with the police but I also think they need to stand up for themselves when being told they can't do something which they clearly can. If that is seen as winding the police up then I don't really know what to say.

[Damsel]

The trouble with all these "photographers being repressed" videos, is that we never see the other side of the coin.

While it would be fair to say the majority of "police interacting with someone" videos on sites like YouTube show "how 'heavy handed' the police are", we never seem to see the ones that say "the police did a really good job with this".

I don't think there are a lot of officers like this PCSO and even the PC that came and dealt with this woman, it's just that I think this type of video are the only ones that get any publicity, which kind of skews the public perception, as they never (or rarely) get to hear about all the stuff that gets filmed where we've at least done ok.

[Jon_b]

One reply I usually give to people when they are telling a negative story about the police is "If it was two black men who did this to you, would you be here now saying you hate all black people?". That tends to get them stuck for words.

[ActivistApp]

Another blatant cover up goes unpunished, leading to police reputation dropping another few notches.

"Given there was an unambiguous miscarriage of justice involving 20 people, and a £1m second collapsed trial, it is astonishing that nobody is to be held to account."


http://www.guardian....-withheld-tapes