201 replies to this topic

[giddens]

http://www.telegraph...nd-passion.html


The topic title is the name of the newspaper article, not my own words in case anyone was wondering.

Giddens

[Thatguy]

http://www.telegraph...nd-passion.html


The topic title is the name of the newspaper article, not my own words in case anyone was wondering.

Giddens

One of the things I DONT agree with..

We need new routes into the service that allow the best graduates to become inspectors within two years, and opened-up recruitment for chief officers so the talent pool can be expanded to overseas applicants. There should be direct entry for people who have business acumen and who can deliver better value for money.

Are you telling me that someone who has no idea of law can learn it all, including gaining enough experience of beat policing to appreciate the work officers do, and to be familiar with the roles they have, in two years? Because they have a degree? So what if they have a 1:1 (first). Thats what the HPDS is for. We need experience as well as a new attitute towards policing. Finance is the problem, not a lack of skill!

And getting candiates from abroad? How are they qualified? Have they studied english law? Are they experienced enough to just waltz in and start commanding officers? And how will people with "Business acumen" be reviewd and monitored?

IMO, inspectors should be for policing. If you want to get anybody in the police force, recruit appropriately qualified financial advisors and administrative staff to free up valuble police time. Then the force may be more effective, instead of suffereing under mountains of paperwork and the restrain of policing budgets!

Good topic me thinks, Rant over!!!


Edit: I agree with the views pointed out in this article, worth a quick read!
Click me!!

Edited by Thatguy, 15 March 2012 - 10:03 AM.

[Growley]

but top graduate talent still does not regard policing as a professional career choice with good prospects, despite the unique benefits.

We need new routes into the service that allow the best graduates to become inspectors within two years,

I take issue with these two points. I don't think the term graduate 'talent' has any real relevance whatsoever, and it's a dangerous thing in the police to suggest it as such. As someone a few months from graduating, I think I can pretty fairly say that 'graduate talent' means nothing; at best the applicable 'talents' to policing are abilities of communication and reasoning. Other than that, there's not much you can possibly learn which would give you anything more than a temporary advantage over someone who hasn't been, and still wanted to join the Police.

On that basis, I disagree that the police should be made a more attractive career path for graduates, because to do so would probably involve graduate schemes. Other than (possibly) having higher academic potential than most people, graduates bring nothing to the police force that sets them apart from the general public, and certainly nothing significant enough to warrant them being given a different point of entry.

The police force can always benefit from having intelligent and articulate people joining, but imo it would not benefit from giving some people an advantage in recruitment purely based on the fact they've participated in higher education.

Are you telling me that someone who has no idea of law can learn it all,

While I agree with your overall point, most law graduates have a greater knowledge of the law than most police. I don't think legal knowledge is the issue at all, the problem is that they, like you said, don't have any applicable skills; purely because the skills are largely developed through doing the job.

Edited by Machiavelli, 15 March 2012 - 10:06 AM.

[SBG]

There is a public employer in Britain that pays staff based on how many years they have served, regardless of their role, how hard they work, or where in the country they live. That organisation is led by those who have spent their entire working life in the same career, and who all joined in the same way, within a few years of each other.

The qualifications for entry are low and, once through probation, that organisation cannot sack staff for poor performance. It also guarantees total job security for 30 years and allows staff to leave on a full pension in their early fifties. It even permits staff to have second jobs, and if they have been around long enough, provides a monthly subsidy for their mortgage. The organisation’s pay structure was last reviewed in 1978.

That employer is the police. Today, an independent review of its long-term future is published. Led by Tom Winsor, a lawyer and former rail regulator, this is a once-in-a-generation chance to reform an outdated workforce, to ensure it is more flexible, fairly remunerated, better trained and more effectively led.

Essentially, Winsor has been wrestling with the same problems – such as career routes and performance-related pay – identified by Sir Patrick Sheehy 20 years ago. Should officers be paid the same in Durham as they are in Dorset for doing the same job, regardless of living costs? Should a police career have only one entry point for all applicants, regardless of experience, and hardly any forced exit points, regardless of performance? Should a cop working unsocial hours and risking injury on the front line advance in their career less quickly than an officer who prefers the office role and the nine to five?

Given the variety of policing roles, it is odd that careers are so inflexible. All officers must begin as constables on the beat. More women and graduates have joined in the past decade, but top graduate talent still does not regard policing as a professional career choice with good prospects, despite the unique benefits.

Just in case you cannot read the article

[Million]

Cream always rises to the top, that's what I've always been told, so as a graduate I would have no qualms with starting out as a regular bobby.

If you're good, then you'll do well, whether there's a BSc next to your name or not.

Edited by Million, 15 March 2012 - 10:12 AM.

[Thatguy]

Just in case you cannot read the article

I did read it. I hope that the Winsor report brings something decent, despite much trepidation from various individuals. And I was disagreeing with the point made by the writer, NOT with the questions that need to be answered, as you quoted.

[callsign-kid]

It seems to me that promotion is less and less about whether or not the person seeking it is actually a good officer or not and more about whether they have a degree. Direct entry will be a disaster. You're an inspector and have 2 years under your belt? Oh so in terms of knowledge, experience, dealing with members of the public and so on and so on you can hold a candle to a PC who's been in for 10 years can you? I doubt it. They'll have to be puppy walked so that they can't have the mick taken out of them. I'd love to know how thats going to work.

[Sam Vimes]

Am I going to be able to rely on that DE Inspector to have my back in a fight, or a non-compliant prisoner in Custody? Are they going to listen to my opinion when I ask for a s18 or for them to close a licensed premises? Or are they going to go and look it up in a book and ignore me for the grunt that I am? After all they won't have joined to be a Police Officer, they won't have joined for the gritty, dirty, adrenaline-fuelled, traumatic side of the job otherwise they'd have done their time as a PC.

All of the good Inspectors I've worked with are cracking cops, and were fantastic PCs and Sgt's by all accounts. They make the right decisions as Inspectors because they've been on the ground and seen how it works. The majority have honed the same sixth sense we all develop as a cop which is something that can't be learned without doing your time at the bottom of the ladder.

A DE Inspector will get no respect from me whatever their qualifications.

[Growley]

Promotions should be based purely on merit. If your university education gives you an advantage here, great; but 'doors' should never be opened purely on the basis of higher education.

[BenBen]

You couldn't have a front line inspector as acting as duty officer with only 2 years because there's something no amount of courses or qualifications can make up for, actual expierance. I've met some very good young in service inspectors on the HPDS, but they've still done there time learning the basics with real policing expierance.

[dredd1981]

Grit and passion.....psd would love that!

[Giraffe]

I would agree with Sam Vines - I'm not keen on the idea of DE Inspectors either. We risk ending up with a situation where those who've left university in their early 20s join up as Inspectors with little real life experience to make the kind of decisions needed at that level. I certainly wouldn't have the same level of respect for a DE Insp as I do for Inspectors that I come across currently. This isn't the Army and a commissioning course isn't suitable to the police service.

That said, in terms of the upper echelons of the police, the very senior officers at the top of the food chain - I do honestly believe this area of policing is one that needs drastic change. I don't agree with much of what David Cameron says, but he was correct when he said that too many senior officers all look the same. They are all conditioned in the same way and the reality is they (in my view) aren't doing a particularly good job. I think looking at 'outside talent' in this area, such as overseas police chiefs with a proven track record, could be a good move.

[richr]

Cream always rises to the top, that's what I've always been told, so as a graduate I would have no qualms with starting out as a regular bobby.

If you're good, then you'll do well, whether there's a BSc next to your name or not.

My name badge has MSC on it

[SBG]

Am not sure about direct entry - We all know some Police managers who have no management skill what so ever , but are very good coppers. So would we then have good managers with no policing skills?

[Gallifrey]

A DE Inspector will get no respect from me whatever their qualifications.

or me either I will refuse to call them Sir or Ma'am

[SBG]

You couldn't have a front line inspector as acting as duty officer with only 2 years because there's something no amount of courses or qualifications can make up for, actual expierance. I've met some very good young in service inspectors on the HPDS, but they've still done there time learning the basics with real policing expierance.

i know someone who is on HPDS and they are an Acting Inspector with 2.5 years in

[Gallifrey]

or me either I will refuse to call them Sir or Ma'am

Oh come on who gave me a -1, how can someone come into a complex job with no experience at that level and make life or death decisions which should be based on experience, answer is that they can't and in my view they will have taken the easy route rather than working their way up.

[candles]

Essentially, some people do have the aptitude to learn the necessary skills and also may have direct police experience in their previous employment - for example, a very active and demonstrably compentent special for 20 years, or has worked in an agency supporting policing, etc. I don't believe that the actual suggestion by Winsor is that a graduate will automatically have the right skills, that sounds more like an ill-informed media twist on it. From what I have seen of the suggestion, it doesn't matter whether you have a degree or not, but you would have to demonstrate the ability, experience and knowledge (not qualifications) to do the job effectively - It is a very drastic change to what we have now, and if managed properly, could have a very positive effect.

Oh come on who gave me a -1, how can someone come into a complex job with no experience at that level and make life or death decisions which should be based on experience, answer is that they can't and in my view they will have taken the easy route rather than working their way up.

I didn't give you a -1, whilst I disagree with you, I don't think you are alone in your views and your assertion is very valid. However, I am sure that no-one without experience would be appointed... If someone was, then the idea has failed and I believe was not implemented as envisaged by Winsor.

[Nicked]

Maybe it would work if it was similar to Sandhurst?

The only worrying thing is that they seem to forget that it is the FRONT LINE POLICE OFFICERS that are the most important. People don't care if we have a degree in criminology,psychology,social whatever or policing. What they do want is someone who deals with the people that no one else want's to!
Does it really matter if our spelling isn't perfect? Or if we can do algebra?

[candles]

Maybe it would work if it was similar to Sandhurst?

The only worrying thing is that they seem to forget that it is the FRONT LINE POLICE OFFICERS that are the most important. People don't care if we have a degree in criminology,psychology,social whatever or policing. What they do want is someone who deals with the people that no one else want's to!
Does it really matter if our spelling isn't perfect? Or if we can do algebra?

I agree with the algebra (but may suggest the individual has a logical thought process), not particularly useful - but good standard of speelling should be a necesity... (sic)

[SoapyW]

Interesting topic and I think the article raises some good points. It is an outdated structure and certainly needs revamping, but hopefully by people that actually understand the job.

For me its pretty straightforward, leave operational policing to experienced police officers. Bring in graduates and who ever you like into business / intel / paper management roles. We can't expect even the brightest graduates to come in and know it all after a couple of years, but by the same token lets stop promoting bobbies and expecting them to be top business people / accountants running a massive budget and organisation.

[Nicked]

I agree with the algebra (but may suggest the individual has a logical thought process), not particularly useful - but good standard of speelling should be a necesity... (sic)

Yeah sorry I do agree that spelling is important, I was just trying to say that the best front line Officer's are often the ones who were simply not interested in education but excel at what they do. I think it would be a great shame to put an end to that type of new Officer?

[candles]

Yeah sorry I do agree that spelling is important, I was just trying to say that the best front line Officer's are often the ones who were simply not interested in education but excel at what they do. I think it would be a great shame to put an end to that type of new Officer?

I was being a little bit flippant, I knew what you were driving at.

I forgot to point out that here are plenty of officers who have already been educated to degree level and are extremely intelligent... So to suggest that the real "talented" graduates aren't attracted to the job isn't particularly constructive...

[CmdKeen]

Oh come on who gave me a -1, how can someone come into a complex job with no experience at that level and make life or death decisions which should be based on experience, answer is that they can't and in my view they will have taken the easy route rather than working their way up.

I gave you a -1 and I'll happily explain why.

Firstly you joined a uniformed, disciplined organisation, and there are certain requirements to that. If you don't want to play any more then take your ball and run off and play with Atraks. Discipline is important in the police, be it turning up looking professional every day, putting up with the rubbish shifts, or when you get ordered to run onto a tube train and kill a suspected suicide bomber.

Secondly what on earth makes you think every current senior officer is somehow magically capable of making life or death decisions, and that is the sole thing that means you call them Sir? Plenty of senior officers currently did their probation and left front line policing behind, they make life and death decisions currently with frankly no practical knowledge of the current situation.

Senior officers are promoted for all sorts of reasons and capabilities, very few of which have any bearing on front line policing. Especially in the current day and age where so few officers actually are really on the front line.

Call them Sir or Ma'am. You have to do that. You don't have to respect them, and you can certainly don't have to go out of your way to help their careers, indeed it is perfectly possible to destroy them from within.

But given them the compliments you are required to do so. Because if nothing else it is what external people see, be they members of the public out on the street or other agencies in meetings. It makes you look unprofessional and discredits your force, service or constabulary as a whole.

[Giraffe]

Maybe it would work if it was similar to Sandhurst?

I don't think so. Although there are some similarities between the police and military, the majority of similarities are cosmetic as it is. What may work well for the military wouldn't necessarily work for the police. There is already an accelerated promotion scheme in place, which allows graduates to move up the food chain more quickly whilst still spending their probation as a PC and actually understanding the job that those under their command do.