87 replies to this topic

[dredd1981]

Dread you were unfairly -1'ed for your opinion which is wrong, I have addressed the balance.

The welfare of the child MUST be paramount, a loving committed parrent(s) (no matter what its make up ) is the correct correct way to bring children up.

Oh and on the subject of nature v nurture - thats a whole other story

Cheers SBG!

On the matter of gay marriage I will say that it is long overdue. What two consenting adults get up to shouldnt be any of the governments business.
On children, I can see the arguements visa vie loving homes etc but i'm just of the old school who was taught that you have a mummy and a daddy and everyone lives happily ever after. Of course I realise that's total rubbish but old habits (or ideas) are hard to break.
Personally I don't get why people would want kids in the first place, but I guess if people want to be married and miserable they might as well have children too and be doubly miserable

[SBG]

Personally I don't get why people would want kids in the first place,

See I knew we would agree on something

[rolex-oyster]

Over 50% of my colleagues at work are lesbians and nearly all of them are in civil partnerships.Most of them seem to have kids too ( not adopted either) from previous relationships where they thought they were straight ( none say they are bi).They are married as far as they are concerned and as the law is concerned and as far as everyone who attended the ceremonies were concerned.

Like most of the 28 of us in our team they have open contempt for organised religion of any kind and wouldn't be seen dead in a church or whatever (literally too).

[Gelf]

One of their arguements is that it isn't natural....but then homosexuality happens in nature, what could be more natural than that?
One thing I don't agree with is gay couples adopting children, to me it's just a step too far, but marriage....I don't see any reason why gays shouldnt be as miserable as everyone else!

Dredd, I started to write a response agreeing with you, but while writing it I convinced myself that I dont realy have a problem with it. So long as both parents are in a loving and stable relationship it doesnt realy matter what sex they are! Its the care for the child that matters.

I won't beat you down with a stick for your opinion, it's yours - however, I disagree completely. A man and a woman can have children, yes that's how it naturally occurs but what about when hubby uses it as a punching bag and wifey uses it as a status symbol in the benefits office/drugs hiding system.

Mike, there is nothing to say that wouldnt happen in a same sex relationship. Child protection issues have nothing to do with gay adoption!

See I knew we would agree on something

Il agree to that as well!!!

[Capt. Carrot]

I am neither Gay nor religious. I am, however, married. The way I see this is if two people want to marry "in the sight of God" then why should any man say they cannot? The Bible is just a book, it has good teachings in it, unfortunately it has a few dodgy ones too. I've tried many times, but no matter what I try I haven't managed to turn my wife into a pillar of salt, apparently though the Bible says it is possible.
The fact is; Sometimes legislation has to bring institutions into the modern world even if it is screaming and kicking. Does it harm me if Gay people are permitted to marry in Church? No.
If God doesn't want Gay marriages to occur in his (her) Church then I'm sure a plague of locusts or frogs will soon update us.

[MikeBrum]

Mike, there is nothing to say that wouldnt happen in a same sex relationship. Child protection issues have nothing to do with gay adoption!

Don't get me wrong, I never said that wouldn't - I was just saying if I had Dredd's attitude I'd see an abusive heterosexual parental couple preferable to a loving homosexual one.

[Jeebs]

Coming from an Irish Catholic background, I can dip in and out of religion as and when it suits me and my opinion, so ill stick my oar in!

I'm all for gays having the same rights as streight folk in terms of civil partnerships and all that stuff, I guess. But I do think that marriage is a term that should be reserved for a man and woman that have been joined in union by a priest, something which will never happen for two blokes unless the church does a full on u turn.

I don't think male&female couples that get married in a registry office should be able to use the term either really! I've always associated marriage to be the term for a union in a church using religious vows, not some council office with your own/weird vows. If you don't use the Religious vows it doesn't count as marriage, it's a civil partnership!

As for same sex couples having children (adopted or otherwise) I'm somewhat undecided, but probably lean towards the RC view.

[Fry]

I'm all for gays having the same rights as streight folk in terms of civil partnerships and all that stuff, I guess. But I do think that marriage is a term that should be reserved for a man and woman that have been joined in union by a priest, something which will never happen for two blokes unless the church does a full on u turn.

So how do you feel about civil marriage between a man and a woman that takes place in a registry office, or marriages conducted by other religions? Are they wrong?

[Paradox]

I'm not religious, but I am fairly sure there is stuff in the bible (or other holy book) about their views on homosexuality, it seems we are offending one group of people just to please another group of people who are not really gaining anything.

Organised religions have been picking and choosing which parts of their text to take literally and which parts to ignore for a very long time now, because quite simply they have to move along with the times to an extent or perish. So why are they so intent on holding their ground on this one? Why not just adapt and carry on like they have done so many times in the past?

[dredd1981]

Organised religions have been picking and choosing which parts of their text to take literally and which parts to ignore for a very long time now, because quite simply they have to move along with the times to an extent or perish. So why are they so intent on holding their ground on this one? Why not just adapt and carry on like they have done so many times in the past?

I think if the RC church allowed gay marriage half the priesthood would walk out on the first day and marry the ups delivery guy!

[MairiAitken]

Cheers SBG!

On the matter of gay marriage I will say that it is long overdue. What two consenting adults get up to shouldnt be any of the governments business.
On children, I can see the arguements visa vie loving homes etc but i'm just of the old school who was taught that you have a mummy and a daddy and everyone lives happily ever after. Of course I realise that's total rubbish but old habits (or ideas) are hard to break.
Personally I don't get why people would want kids in the first place, but I guess if people want to be married and miserable they might as well have children too and be doubly miserable

ok well as a happy open lesbian in a very happy relationship i feel the need to have a little reply here. As a little girl i always dreamed of being married, however even though i was brought up religiously i soon found i could not believe in something that did not believe in me (also i discovered science). I have no issue with people and their own beliefs in religion that is for each to decide on their own. I also do not have an issue with the fact some religions believe homosexuality is wrong.... again that is their opinion. I do however have issue with this being forcebly thrown out into the wider population and in a modern age still having anti gay protests and speeches.... i do not come into the church and start preeching about homosexuality so dont come round my door and start telling me my sexuality (which is not a choice) is wrong.

As for marriage i fully intend to have a civil partnership one day..... this is fine for me it shows my love and commitment to my partner and gives us the necessary rights in the eyes of the law. i personally feel it would be hypocritical for me to get married in a church however that is my opinion.

As for the child adoption dredd again i understand what you say, and there are many people who find it hard to let go of beliefs they have had, however i believe in this day and age it should be about the child having a loving home not about the sex/race/status of the parents. you only have to look at the low adoption rates in the uk (recently on the news) which is down to over stringent adoption rules.... think about all the kids still living in care homes im pretty sure if you asked them they would rather have gay parents then stay in a home (again just my opinion)

[Paradox]

I think if the RC church allowed gay marriage half the priesthood would walk out on the first day and marry the ups delivery guy!

Bill Maher right?

[Jeebs]

So how do you feel about civil marriage between a man and a woman that takes place in a registry office, or marriages conducted by other religions? Are they wrong?

I said registry office marriages between a man and a woman should also be classed as a civil partnership.

As for other religions no they aren't wrong, I simply neglected to include them in what I said. A marriage conducted by an imam, rabbi, pujari or whatever is still a marriage, as they are all religious ceremonies.

[dredd1981]

Bill Maher right?

Oh you're good, you're good, thats why i come here

[Sappmer]

"man shall not lie next to man like woman"

Clicky

I'm going to throw this in there...

It doesn't say you're not allowed to be gay.

It doesn't say either, that you have to tell everyone if you do do it.

[dredd1981]

I'm going to throw this in there...

It doesn't say you're not allowed to be gay.

It doesn't say either, that you have to tell everyone if you do do it.

I love religion! If it weren't for religion does anyone think we would have even half the amount of prejudice?

[Sappmer]

I love religion! If it weren't for religion does anyone think we would have even half the amount of prejudice?

Debatable. Maybe humans are just a prejudiced lot and would discriminate no matter what alternative to religion there is. And if I am honest, from what I've seen of a number of the people that identify themselves as athiest, they are just as bad as some of those who identify themselves as having a religion.
Even Atheism has it's extremists.

[Radman]

I love religion! If it weren't for religion does anyone think we would have even half the amount of prejudice?

We'd find something else to hate each other over im sure...

[gordon]

Debatable. Maybe humans are just a prejudiced lot and would discriminate no matter what alternative to religion there is. And if I am honest, from what I've seen of a number of the people that identify themselves as athiest, they are just as bad as some of those who identify themselves as having a religion.
Even Atheism has it's extremists.

But you don't hear stories of atheists shooting abortion doctors, blowing up crowds in the name of their god, or telling you who you should have sex with. An extreme atheist is someone that tells you to make your own mind up and not follow a man made church.

Good/bad people do good/bad things, but to make the good people do bad you need religion.

[dredd1981]

But you don't hear stories of atheists shooting abortion doctors, blowing up crowds in the name of their god, or telling you who you should have sex with. An extreme atheist is someone that tells you to make your own mind up and not follow a man made church.

Good/bad people do good/bad things, but to make the good people do bad you need religion.

Very true, don't forget 9/11 and 7/7 were inspired by religion!

[Lucas North]

If gay people want to get married and be miserable like the rest of us... let 'em

[Machiavelli]

I love religion! If it weren't for religion does anyone think we would have even half the amount of prejudice?

Of course we would. Religion is essentially man-made, and reflects prejudices created by man; not to mention that IIRC christianity at least makes no prominent distinction between white/black/asian etc. Religion-on-religion prejudice may be some of the most destructive around, but it's only one of many bases of prejudice in everyday life.

Good/bad people do good/bad things, but to make the good people do bad you need religion.

Lol most constantly re-used quote on the subject, it was bound to come up eventually..

Edited by Machiavelli, 10 March 2012 - 07:24 PM.

[David]

Of course we would. Religion is essentially man-made

I'd agree with that. There's loads of complex reasons why religion is so important to some, ranging from perhaps a kernel of truth somewhere in the past to people needing some sort of reason as to their existence. I often think, however, that it was invented simply as a method to keep the masses down. It was an easy way the ruling classes of old could keep their position in society.

However, getting back to same-sex marriages I see various cardinals etc are once again shaking their fists in anger.

[rolex-oyster]

However, getting back to same-sex marriages I see various cardinals etc are once again shaking their fists in anger.

Thats up to them we can choose just ignore them and keep on with civil partnerships as they are.End result just the same as a church marriage in law and can be just as fancy a celebration.
What will not change is that alot of the faiths consider homosexuality as completely wrong and no amount of anti homophobic legislation can change this.
Bigots certainly in the police ( as is my experience) have simply learned t keep their traps shut.Outside this amongst people I mix with usually through no choice i.e family and friends of said family homophobia is massive.Two lesbians moved into next door at my mums and the 'tittle tattling' amongst middle aged well qualified and paid siblings cousins and friends of them is disgraceful.The sad reality is that outside of legislated environments or pro homosexual circles homophobia is still there.Its just hidden behind the curtains.

In part the cardinals will be preaching to an already converted congregation.With those who condemn it the most courting the most popularity from church faithful and more importantly the Vatican.

[Londonbased]

One of their arguements is that it isn't natural....but then homosexuality happens in nature, what could be more natural than that?
One thing I don't agree with is gay couples adopting children, to me it's just a step too far, but marriage....I don't see any reason why gays shouldnt be as miserable as everyone else!

I used to agree with that viewpoint but don't anymore.
Homosexuals suffered a lot of discrimination in the past in that even their sexual preference was illegal and punishable by imprisonment.

I didn't understand homosexuality at all in my own youth and failed to see why any man would see nothing in an attractive woman.

But as I grew older I became more tolerant and realised that homosexuals are in fact normal people. It is not a lifestyle choice.

Again, I once had issues with gay people wanting to marry and adopt children. I thought at the time they were pushing it a little too far.
Now I am old enough and mature enough to realise that gays are not asking for preferential treatment. They just want to be treated the same as everybody else.

What is wrong with allowing homosexuals to adopt children? (Or even have their own as lesbians can)
The children will not be harmed in any way.

Children of gay parents have not turned out gay themselves so what is the problem?
It is far better for children to be placed with two gay parents than to end up in care.