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#1 David

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 09:43 AM

The government's plans for gay marriage have been criticised by the most senior Roman Catholic cleric in Britain.

Cardinal Keith O'Brien, the leader of the Catholic Church in Scotland, said the plans were a "grotesque subversion of a universally accepted human right".

He said the idea of redefining marriage, which David Cameron has said he supports, would "shame the United Kingdom in the eyes of the world".

He said it was wrong to deliberately deprive a child of a mother or father.

"Same-sex marriage would eliminate entirely in law the basic idea of a mother and a father for every child. It would create a society which deliberately chooses to deprive a child of either a mother or a father."

Cardinal O'Brien has become the latest of several senior clergy to denounce what he calls the "madness" of the government's backing for marriage to include homosexual couples.

He accused ministers of attempting to "redefine reality", and "dismantle the universally understood meaning of marriage".

He claimed the change was "at the behest of a small minority of activists".

Yeah?

Whilst I am in two minds about same-sex 'marriage' (though absolutely and fully support civil partnerships), stop and think Cardinal O'Brien, of the thousands of lives, some young, that your own hypocritical church let alone priests have ruined whilst your own hierarchy remained silent before you criticise if not demonise a loving, and hopefully stable, relationship entered in to by consenting adults.

#2 Radman

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 10:25 AM

Yeah?

Whilst I am in two minds about same-sex 'marriage' (though absolutely and fully support civil partnerships), stop and think Cardinal O'Brien, of the thousands of lives, some young, that your own hypocritical church let alone priests have ruined whilst your own hierarchy remained silent before you criticise if not demonise a loving, and hopefully stable, relationship entered in to by consenting adults.


I'm in two minds about it.

By all means civil partnerships that provide the couples all of the same rights as marriage but I find something 'off' with forcing religious groups to accept same sex marriages if they dont want it, it is a highly emotional issue.

#3 David

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 10:30 AM

but I find something 'off' with forcing religious groups to accept same sex marriages if they dont want it

Oh I can accept that, even if on a personal level I don't agree with their protestations, but I find the hypocrisy of the Catholic church astounding.

#4 Radman

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 10:35 AM

Oh I can accept that, even if on a personal level I don't agree with their protestations, but I find the hypocrisy of the Catholic church astounding.


Thats the Catholic church for you though isnt it?

Im just glad im not religious, some of their 'beliefs' are nothing short of terrible in my book.

#5 candid

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 11:00 AM

Whilst I am in two minds about same-sex 'marriage' (though absolutely and fully support civil partnerships),


I'm really confused by your post mate. You support civil partnership but not necessarily marriage....forgive me for how the question will be worded but to you, what is the difference and how does either affect you if any?

BTW you make an excellent point after and I couldn't agree more! :-)

#6 Radman

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 11:56 AM

I'm really confused by your post mate. You support civil partnership but not necessarily marriage....forgive me for how the question will be worded but to you, what is the difference and how does either affect you if any?

BTW you make an excellent point after and I couldn't agree more! :-)


The way I see it Marriage would mean your forcing the church to accept same sex marriage when the church necessarily doesnt agree with it.

Civil Partnership is the same LEGALLY as a Marriage giving couples all the same rights in law as hetrosexual couples who are married, which in my opinion makes sense and is 'fair.'

Forcing a concept on a church that they dont agree with isnt fair or in the interest of tolerance and will simply just get peoples 'backs up' who hold those certain beliefs.

#7 candid

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 12:18 PM

The way I see it Marriage would mean your forcing the church to accept same sex marriage when the church necessarily doesnt agree with it.

Civil Partnership is the same LEGALLY as a Marriage giving couples all the same rights in law as hetrosexual couples who are married, which in my opinion makes sense and is 'fair.'

Forcing a concept on a church that they dont agree with isnt fair or in the interest of tolerance and will simply just get peoples 'backs up' who hold those certain beliefs.


Thanks for the clarification Rad...I wasn't having a go BTW.

However marriage isn't just a catholic thing, there are many churches some of which do accept same sex marriage. What about a catholic same sex couple, should they not have the right to marry in their own church? Isn't telling them 'NO' forcing other peoples views on to them?

Is it fair for same sex couple to legally marry in countries such as Canade, Argentina, Belgium, Iceland, Netherlands, Norway, Brazil, Portugal, Spain, south Africa plus parts of USA and not here? Do they not have religion in those countries?

Edited by candid, 04 March 2012 - 12:23 PM.


#8 Radman

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 12:28 PM

Thanks for the clarification Rad...I wasn't having a go BTW.

However marriage isn't just a catholic thing, there are many churches some of which do accept same sex marriage. What about a catholic same sex couple, should they not have the right to marry in their own church? Isn't telling them 'NO' forcing other peoples views on to them?

Is it fair for same sex couple to legally marry in countries such as Canade, Argentina, Belgium, Iceland, Netherlands, Norway, Brazil, Portugal, Spain, south Africa plus parts of USA and not here? Do they not have religion in those countries?


Im not saying im against it but im saying the church is against it, atleast over here.

If the church wants to marry a homosexual couple then why not have ceremony after going down the registry office?

The vast majority of churches are against same sex marriage atleast from how I understand it, I dont see how forcing those churches to marry same sex couples is going to help the matter. Lawfully the legislation is already in place, if you are a same sex couple you can become civil partners which is the same as marriage legally.

#9 Gelf

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 12:37 PM

I have to say I am not really in favour of the changes David Cameron and Co want to bring in. We already have some exemptions to certain laws on religious grounds, it seems just because our churches are seen as a soft touch we are forcing them to accept something that goes against their faith.
We already have same sex civil partnerships and having attended one in the summer, it was exactly the same as a church marriage except it wasn’t in a church and the vows were slightly different.

The civil partnerships give people the same rights as a marriage, to me it just seems people are being childish and saying "they have got the marriage toy and I haven’t, I want it too"

I’m not religious, but I am fairly sure there is stuff in the bible (or other holy book) about their views on homosexuality, it seems we are offending one group of people just to please another group of people who are not really gaining anything.

#10 David

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 12:39 PM

Hmm perhaps I should try and explain.

I'm fully in favour of civil partnerships, but I am in two minds about 'marriages' being performed in churches (although churches should all be far more accepting of homosexuality anyway) - do things need to go that far to be performed in church, even forcing gay marriages on the Church, even if churches themselves should be far more tolerant of homosexuality anyway? Thing is if both parties are religious and worship regularly, then shouldn't a marriage be recognised and performed in their church? I think it should. That particular aspect does create a dilemma for me.

However, the main point I was trying to make is the outstanding hypocrisy of the Catholic church given their record on the priesthood ruining thousands of young lives from predatory priests abusing children, boys as well as girls, whilst going on to thunder from the pulpit about sin and immorality, and then protecting those very priests within the church itself. How dare they criticise gay weddings given their history on paedophilia and then to cover it up?

#11 Radman

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 12:48 PM

Hmm perhaps I should try and explain.

I'm fully in favour of civil partnerships, but I am in two minds about 'marriages' being performed in churches (although churches should all be far more accepting of homosexuality anyway) - do things need to go that far to be performed in church, even forcing gay marriages on the Church, even if churches themselves should be far more tolerant of homosexuality anyway? Thing is if both parties are religious and worship regularly, then shouldn't a marriage be recognised and performed in their church? I think it should. That particular aspect does create a dilemma for me.

However, the main point I was trying to make is the outstanding hypocrisy of the Catholic church given their record on the priesthood ruining thousands of young lives from predatory priests abusing children, boys as well as girls, whilst going on to thunder from the pulpit about sin and immorality, and then protecting those very priests within the church itself. How dare they criticise gay weddings given their history on paedophilia and then to cover it up?


My thoughts exactly.

+1

#12 MacGregor

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 01:03 PM

Biblical views on homosexuality were formed when people thought it was a disease that could be cured rather than a perfectly natural thing. I fully support the right of homosexual couples to get married in a church like everyone else. A civil partnership may be the same but there are homosexual couples who are religious and are being denied something that is afforded to other members of the same faith based on an outdated understanding of homosexuality. If a homosexual can be a Christian (which I suggest they can, others may disagree), why can't they be afforded the same oppurtunity to marry as other Christians?

#13 Gelf

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 01:23 PM

Hmm perhaps I should try and explain.

I'm fully in favour of civil partnerships, but I am in two minds about 'marriages' being performed in churches (although churches should all be far more accepting of homosexuality anyway) - do things need to go that far to be performed in church, even forcing gay marriages on the Church, even if churches themselves should be far more tolerant of homosexuality anyway? Thing is if both parties are religious and worship regularly, then shouldn't a marriage be recognised and performed in their church? I think it should. That particular aspect does create a dilemma for me.

However, the main point I was trying to make is the outstanding hypocrisy of the Catholic church given their record on the priesthood ruining thousands of young lives from predatory priests abusing children, boys as well as girls, whilst going on to thunder from the pulpit about sin and immorality, and then protecting those very priests within the church itself. How dare they criticise gay weddings given their history on paedophilia and then to cover it up?

I wouldn’t disagree with any of that statement, but I just think it should be down to the church in question to decide who they are happy to marry. I would question why you would want to hold your gay marriage in a place where the people think it is a sin, but if both “grooms†(or brides) are members of said church then you would hope the congregation and minister would be more understanding and might be happy to conduct the service. I still think it should be down to the church to decide rather than have the law twisting their arm.

With regards to the comments on paedophilia in the catholic church, religion has always been a “do as I say not as I do†basis, that will never change.



Biblical views on homosexuality were formed when people thought it was a disease that could be cured rather than a perfectly natural thing. I fully support the right of homosexual couples to get married in a church like everyone else. A civil partnership may be the same but there are homosexual couples who are religious and are being denied something that is afforded to other members of the same faith based on an outdated understanding of homosexuality. If a homosexual can be a Christian (which I suggest they can, others may disagree), why can't they be afforded the same oppurtunity to marry as other Christians?

It doesn’t matter when the views of a religion were first formed, whatever people believe as part of their faith who are you or I to tell them they are wrong? The bible says homosexuality is a sin, I know some Christians who would say it’s not a sin and I also know some Christians who would have a fairly heated discussion with me if I suggested I don’t think it is a sin. But it’s written in the holy book that they try to live their life by.
Religion is a very delicate subject and as much as I think we can try and nudge it in the direction we see fit, we shouldn’t be forcing people to do something their faith tells them not to.

#14 pmtts

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 01:32 PM

With regards to the comments on paedophilia in the catholic church, religion has always been a “do as I say not as I do†basis, that will never change.


Agree. Although it's been very prominent within the Catholic church, It's also happened within the Church of England, The Anglican church, The Islamic & Jewish faiths.

#15 SBG

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 02:22 PM

This is not about forcing Churches to accept gay marriage its about my right to use the word "Married"

Simple as that

#16 Kaonashi

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 03:27 PM

Biblical views on homosexuality were formed when people thought it was a disease that could be cured rather than a perfectly natural thing. I fully support the right of homosexual couples to get married in a church like everyone else. A civil partnership may be the same but there are homosexual couples who are religious and are being denied something that is afforded to other members of the same faith based on an outdated understanding of homosexuality. If a homosexual can be a Christian (which I suggest they can, others may disagree), why can't they be afforded the same oppurtunity to marry as other Christians?


Playing Devil's Neuroscientific Advocate here, but...

If you were to think of homosexuality as a 'disease', then there is no reason (especially in these technologically and medically advanced times) to suppose that it couldn't be 'cured'. Your opinion about whether it is something that should be 'cured' or not depends on where you get your information on the subject - from an empirical assessment of homosexuality and its effects on society/individuals, or from an old book.

Beware also of the 'whatever-is-perfectly-natural-is-fine argument' (a weak version of the 'Naturalistic Fallacy'). Many things are 'perfectly natural' but not always fine - nakedness, mental illnesses, cancer, loud smelly farts, and so on. These things would also be acceptable to society if 'being perfectly natural' was a good reason. They are not, and it is not.

Edited by Bouquaine, 04 March 2012 - 03:33 PM.


#17 David

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 04:03 PM

Mmm but Bou, we all of us now know that homosexuality is not a disease and it cannot be cured - neither is it a 'choice' or even 'preference' as some seem to call it. I know Churches still seem refuse to accept that, but even the most ardent sceptic accepts the world is round. Why are Churches so vehemently anti-gay?

#18 Kaonashi

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 04:36 PM

Mmm but Bou, we all of us now know that homosexuality is not a disease and it cannot be cured - neither is it a 'choice' or even 'preference' as some seem to call it. I know Churches still seem refuse to accept that, but even the most ardent sceptic accepts the world is round. Why are Churches so vehemently anti-gay?


Anything, including homosexuality, in theory at least, could be 'cured'. It is entirely dependent on whether you view it as something that should be 'cured' or not. That depends on where you get your information about the world - Churches get their's from a 2000 year old view of the universe.

Only an idiot would argue that it is a 'choice' or 'preference'.

"Why are churches so vehemently anti-gay?", and why do they see it as some sort of disease?. Probably, I would suggest, because it is a 'disease' that is disproportionately eating away at members of the clergy and thus the Church as a whole. Perhaps the Church and its archaic worldview feels increasingly 'consumed' by the 'disease' of 2000 years of human progress that accepts the harmless fact of homosexuality.

Edited by Bouquaine, 04 March 2012 - 04:37 PM.


#19 Übèrnamè

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 04:54 PM

Why is this an issue in the 21st century. It's marriage - not "gay marriage".

Oh right...religion.

#20 Radman

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 05:16 PM

This is not about forcing Churches to accept gay marriage its about my right to use the word "Married"

Simple as that


So where's the issue SBG?

A homosexual couple who become civil partners are legally married - same rights as everyone else, same legal entitlements ect.

We're arguing over a word, surley if you were gay you would simply say if someone asked "Yes we're married."

To me it seems as if people are arguing over words and that's it, the substance of the matter is actually already in place.

I don't think the government should meddle in religious views or religious matters, if the church wants to change then it will change, a persons belief no matter how wrong it may seem to everyone else/us won't change because the government forces it too.

#21 SBG

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 05:59 PM

So where's the issue SBG?

A homosexual couple who become civil partners are legally married - same rights as everyone else, same legal entitlements ect.

We're arguing over a word, surley if you were gay you would simply say if someone asked "Yes we're married."

To me it seems as if people are arguing over words and that's it, the substance of the matter is actually already in place.

I don't think the government should meddle in religious views or religious matters, if the church wants to change then it will change, a persons belief no matter how wrong it may seem to everyone else/us won't change because the government forces it too.


So what colour is your car? Black, ha right, because of "religion" you have to call it white.

How would you feel?

Actually now that you have me on my soapbox

Considering all the harm that religion, and in particular the Catholic Church has done, I find it abhorrent that they have the audacity to lecture me on moral issues. Lets start with the genocide happening in Africa all in the name of religion. The simple use of condoms would stop HIV spreading. The lack of doing anything in the 70s and 80s to stop child abuse.

This is, in the UK, a pure and simple legal matter Religion should play no part.

Edited by SBG, 04 March 2012 - 06:04 PM.


#22 Doghandler2009

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 06:59 PM

Leaving aside for a minute whether or not the catholic church should or should not marry gay couples I have to wonder why any gay couple or person would want to be part of a church that is openly against them

#23 Rocket

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 07:41 PM

If two people who love and care for each other are prepared to spend the rest of their lives together until one of them dies then I really have no issue what sex they are, it really doesn't matter if they wish to be married.

The issue I have is with the churches because they really struggle to move with our advancing society, and so their church attendances are plummeting.

If anyone can get more up to date statistics then please post them, but to give you an idea Church attendances in England from 1980 - 2005 for the Catholic Church shrank from 2,064,000 to 893,100 Link

Very soon, it won't matter what churches think as they will be irrelevant which I find a shame because I am a Christian and I do go to Church but go less and less because I have a 'live and let live' view of life that they don't have.

#24 SBG

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 08:01 PM

I have several good friends who are devout and they dont have an issue.

I think the top echelons of the Church appear to be out of touch. What I find fasinating about all of this is that if we lived our lives / run the country according to the bible we whould still be in the dark ages and nothing would have moved on - it would appear that a lot of its "teaching" such as not working on the sabeth or sowing different crops side by side etc, get swept away all bar one; "man shall not lie next to man like woman"

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#25 Londonbased

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 09:25 PM

Civil Partnership is the same LEGALLY as a Marriage giving couples all the same rights in law as hetrosexual couples


Civil partnerships do give the same legal rights as a marriage between straight couples but this argument is more of faith than law.

Atheists may baulk at this but many gay people have a strong Christian faith and wanted to be treated equally by the church as well as the law.

Leaving aside for a minute whether or not the catholic church should or should not marry gay couples I have to wonder why any gay couple or person would want to be part of a church that is openly against them


I am a heterosexual non catholic but I believe the answer is that gay people may have been brought up in devout Roman Catholic households and feel they shouldn't have to make a choice between faith or sexuality




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