17 replies to this topic

[dredd1981]

http://www.newslette...funds_1_3542292

I can't believe this isn't a major news item...it's like Westminster paying for statues to honour the 7/7 bombers! What an absolute disgrace!

[SBG]

Whilst NI politics are very complex, it does seem very strange on the face of it.

[I'm still here]

this one??

[CmdKeen]

At first glance that looks like Satan dragging someone down to hell...

[Stevie6544]

Let them have their statue, it still stands on British soil. 'Martyrdom' hasn't changed that fact.

[Samson]

Let them have their statue, it still stands on British soil. 'Martyrdom' hasn't changed that fact.

Us paying for it to stand on British soil makes me feel rather nausious thought. I get the arguement that peace (or the diminished violence that passes for peace in NI) is worth swallowing one pride for, but there is all the difference in the world between private individual maintaining the memorial and taxpayers doing so.

[Whopper MacBig]

It's not that odd if you can look at it objectively.

Peace did not come about on the basis that all the Government deaths were victims whereas all the republican deaths were deserved. Peace came about when people accepted that everybody who died was a victim. It might stick in your throat, but if you want to be part of the solution rather than continue with the problem then you just have to get your head round it.

Therefore, all statues no matter who it is that they commemorate, should be treated the same where using public funds for upkeep is concerned.

[dredd1981]

It's not that odd if you can look at it objectively.

Peace did not come about on the basis that all the Government deaths were victims whereas all the republican deaths were deserved. Peace came about when people accepted that everybody who died was a victim. It might stick in your throat, but if you want to be part of the solution rather than continue with the problem then you just have to get your head round it.

Therefore, all statues no matter who it is that they commemorate, should be treated the same where using public funds for upkeep is concerned.

The notion that everyone who died in the troubles was a victim is repugnant to anyone with a shred of decency in their bodies. To say that the terrorist who planted the bomb was as much a victim as the poor sod who was blown to bits is exactly the type of rubbish peddled by the likes of sinn fein who want the world to think of the ira as freedom fighters instead of the murderous filth they are.

All statues should be treated the same? So a statue honouring murderers should be treated the same as a statue to the murdered? Absolutely ludicrous! I very much doubt whether victims or relatives of victims of 7/7 would accept the notion that the suicide bombers were as much a victim as the people who died. Would they stand for a memorial to the scum who murdered their loved ones? I think not! So why then do the decent people of Northern Ireland have to put up with it? The answer quite simply is one of lets give the ira everything it wants so that they dont bomb us and to hell with the victims.

And to say that if you disagree with the notion that a murderer is a victim then you are part of the problem........outrageous! In no other part of the UK or in no other part of the civilised world would terrorists be treated as victims why then should it be the case in NI? Cowardice plain and simple. It is easier to appease the terrorist than it is to stand up for what is morally right.

[I'm still here]

It's not that odd if you can look at it objectively.

Peace did not come about on the basis that all the Government deaths were victims whereas all the republican deaths were deserved. Peace came about when people accepted that everybody who died was a victim. It might stick in your throat, but if you want to be part of the solution rather than continue with the problem then you just have to get your head round it.

Therefore, all statues no matter who it is that they commemorate, should be treated the same where using public funds for upkeep is concerned.

"Peace"

Is this the "Peace" your waffling about?? http://www.bbc.co.uk...reland-10866072

[Stevie6544]

Whopper, the reaction to your opinion can be seen by the above replies.

Your points, objective as they may be, are in some senses right but are like a red rag to a bull in their pronouncement.
NI society has proceeded from a point of almost universal despair and a realisation, on the part of those doing the directing rather than the dying, that the campaign/cause had 'hit the wall'. There was no other option than to talk a deal, one that would give a bit to all and everything to no-one.

A lot of very bitter pills had to be swallowed and, in the fifteen years since that point, the society has tried to move on and learn what a 'normal' existence means. The first generation of youth to grow up without endemic violence and death around them are now nearly adults and carry the hopes for everyone who lived through 40 years of war.
But the mindset still exists, the memories still live and the dead will always be remembered as a cost for what has been achieved. I don't know your background, I don't know your experience or terms of reference, but it is easy to stand at a distance and coolly make a pragmatic, concise, 'that's the two ends of the situation' list of statements and sum up 40 / 800 years in one paragraph. It's not a subject to make throwaway pronouncements about, that has ended careers and caused pain and harm in the past.

The war is something to try to understand, not to try and sum up in 100 words. I am blessed in that I have met many people, some who became good friends, from all parts of the community, and heard and learned as much as they could pass on. It gives me no advantage but I have learned that people do not want to be told 'the answer' to their Troubles - they just want their part to be understood and appreciated. See it from all sides and accept, but do not judge.

For them to accept their share of the big sh1t sandwich that is 'peace' is one thing. They all do their bit to allow it to grow and change society over time. But it is not for anyone to tell them how they should regard their place in this change, or tell them what things to retain and what to cast away. They have to work that out for themselves and also decide if they want to or not.
They have suffered too much to be denied that choice; the legacy of the last 40 years surrounds them and will continue to do so. It deserves its place, whatever side you look at it from, but things like this will always light a spark in the dark place within them, where painful memories live. And if they don't let these sparks out and 'remind' people that there is a line that is still too far to cross, then there is a danger that the whole nightmare could grow again.
Talking is healing, listening is learning. But remember, people are just people.

[Whopper MacBig]

Whopper, the reaction to your opinion can be seen by the above replies.

Your points, objective as they may be, are in some senses right but are like a red rag to a bull in their pronouncement.

The reaction is not unexpected by me Stevie. While the communities in Northern Ireland should be commended for the huge effort that they have made to move on, inevitably there are those within who still prefer to grind their axe at every opportunity.

"Peace"

Is this the "Peace" your waffling about?? http://www.bbc.co.uk...reland-10866072

So are you contending that there is no peace and you are still at each others throats? Marvellous. Just you carry on then - I'm sure another 40 years will fix it.

[Radman]

The reaction is not unexpected by me Stevie. While the communities in Northern Ireland should be commended for the huge effort that they have made to move on, inevitably there are those within who still prefer to grind their axe at every opportunity.




So are you contending that there is no peace and you are still at each others throats? Marvellous. Just you carry on then - I'm sure another 40 years will fix it.

Not being funny whopper but I think seeing your colleagues and innocent members of public (from all backgrounds of the conflict) killed for frankly pointless and outdated ideologies from people unwilling to move on from the past and accept how things are in modern society IS going to stick in peoples throats.... Especially from serving PSNI Officers.

My opinion is paying public/tax payers money to fund a statue that celebrates; murderers, bombers and terrorists is NOT an appropriate use of such money, no matter how people try and dress it up as a 'good thing' or a 'step forward.'

Edited by Radman, 24 February 2012 - 11:49 PM.

[dredd1981]

Something tells me Whopper would have a different opinion if it were his colleagues or his family.....but then again maybe not....

[ian7675]

Sorry if you think I have no business posting on the PSNI page but I have served two tours of N. Ireland one being 2 years long and I find the idea of this "tribute" absolutely disgraceful. I find it incredible that this was even considered and unless things have drastically changed in the last decade I'm sure this will not help to contribute towards any sustained peace but infuriate certain groups.......in a nutshell, it's another site for a public disorder meeting.

Edit: I see it is an existing statue and I should have read the article in more detail but my reaction still stands.

Edited by ian7675, 25 February 2012 - 08:54 AM.

[pmtts]

A Sinn Fein /IRA minister approving a statute renovation to murdering terrorist scum. No shock there really!

I hope every piece of scum named on that statue is rotting in hell!

[Stevie6544]

Whopper said: "While the communities in Northern Ireland should be commended for the huge effort that they have made to move on, inevitably there are those within who still prefer to grind their axe at every opportunity."

It's a long-standing tradition, it's how politics was conducted for many years, for some its proved hard to move away from, and for others it's the only way to remind people that they still exist. Such is the hollow reality of what passed for politics for too long.

It's also the tool of those now in the 'establishment' to retain links with the ever-fading 'glories' of their grotesque past, the salient attitudes that got them to prominenance, re-elected year on year and elevated to the seat of power. If they know how to do anything, they know how to use any means to retain credence with their grass roots.

People know how to 'read' these gestures for what they really mean and have reached the point where, if it doesn't slow the internet speeds, interfere with Sky sport coverage or working overtime, they really couldn't give a fiddler's doo-dah about it. It's the 'oxygen of publicity' in reverse, it's on the tv and the papers, a bit on the radio on the way to work, and that's it, gone. 95% of the people will never set foot in Cross so this has no impact on their lives or sensibilities.

This in no way meant to diminish the understandable moral outrage of those who consider this statue and what it represents as total anathaema. But nowadays many people allow this sort of event to wash off their lives; this is the real result of 'peace'. 'Life' has supplanted the reality of death and violence and, given the experience of the past, social emotion has fled to the other end of the scale: society is possibly more selfish and self-serving than at any point in the past. So the 'traditional' priorities of the past have been set on the back burner, allowing these events to become little more than 'street theatre'.

The menace of the emerging dissident groups is a reality, but it is a product of both the past and the present, played with the skill of a puppeteer for the greatest effect with the least effort or cost to those involved in furthering the 'cause' abandoned by the 'traitors'. They want in four years, what their predecessors took forty years to gain. The same game, the same 'objectives', even some of the same people. If there is a enduring industry in NI, it is terrorism.

Ian7675, you have as much right as anyone to post here. PM on the way.

[wannabecop]

Peace came about when people accepted that everybody who died was a victim. It might stick in your throat, but if you want to be part of the solution rather than continue with the problem then you just have to get your head round it.

What a load of rubbish. For example, are you suggesting that the innocent 3 year old and 12 year old who died in Warrington in 1993 as the result of an IRA bomb should be considered victims alongside the IRA members who were ambushed while in the process of attempting a bomb and gun attack on Loughgall police station in 1987?

[I'm still here]

The reaction is not unexpected by me Stevie. While the communities in Northern Ireland should be commended for the huge effort that they have made to move on, inevitably there are those within who still prefer to grind their axe at every opportunity.




So are you contending that there is no peace and you are still at each others throats? Marvellous. Just you carry on then - I'm sure another 40 years will fix it.

I'm "contending" nowt, I'm sure the BBC has a firm enough grasp on the subject matter. We simply don't have the peace we all signed up for in the Good Friday accord and to say otherwise is a lie.

Edited by I'm still here, 28 February 2012 - 11:46 AM.