72 replies to this topic

[MacGregor]

The age old saying that academics tend not to live in the real world or dont have much common sense holds true in my opinion, if decisions were made by the people actually doing the jobs then the country would be better for it (viva revolution my fellow working comrades! Or something like that... )

I think that really is an awfully narrow minded point of view and it is fairly offensive in all honesty. You cannot tar academics with such a broad brush, there are a few who stay very much in their ivory tower no doubt but from my experience so far this doesn't hold true for the majority. I've met plenty of people not involved in academia who live in a dream world, they exist in every walk of life though.

[Machiavelli]

Why should he?

He does the job day after day, the academic does not and whilst very educated and qualified (im sure) they aren't the ones with the experience or are the ones doing the job - they are however unfortunately the people who have the final say on most matters. In my humble opinion, first hand, front-line experience trumps any academic finding or report.

The age old saying that academics tend not to live in the real world or dont have much common sense holds true in my opinion, if decisions were made by the people actually doing the jobs then the country would be better for it (viva revolution my fellow working comrades! Or something like that... )

The police service is riddled with instances of outside meddling which have caused many more problems and made the job harder for the people on the frontline.

The police service is also full of people who barely even know the law they gain their authority from when making an arrest, and whom have no knowledge outside of arresting people and getting them off the streets. Like it or not, you need your superiors to have the wider knowledge, as they're the ones controlling where the finite resources are focused.

I wouldn't ever suggest that academia should replace experience, but at the same time, ignorance only breeds ignorance; and putting a (sole) front-liner in charge of meaningful decisions would usually end in disaster.

[Radman]

I think that really is an awfully narrow minded point of view and it is fairly offensive in all honesty. You cannot tar academics with such a broad brush, there are a few who stay very much in their ivory tower no doubt but from my experience so far this doesn't hold true for the majority. I've met plenty of people not involved in academia who live in a dream world, they exist in every walk of life though.

Yes but the people who live in dream worlds who don't hold important big named positions in society generally cause little to no damage.

I'm not going to defend my point in any major way, you think it's narrow minded, I find it accurate and I'm sure I'm not the only one on here who thinks the same going off of previous topics.

My point still stands that someone actually doing the Job day in day out has a better understanding then someone externally going in with an agenda.

One thing I think we can agree on is that the current system ain't working.

[Machiavelli]

I think that really is an awfully narrow minded point of view and it is fairly offensive in all honesty. You cannot tar academics with such a broad brush, there are a few who stay very much in their ivory tower no doubt but from my experience so far this doesn't hold true for the majority. I've met plenty of people not involved in academia who live in a dream world, they exist in every walk of life though.

Well said.

[Radman]

The police service is also full of people who barely even know the law they gain their authority from when making an arrest, and whom have no knowledge outside of arresting people and getting them off the streets. Like it or not, you need your superiors to have the wider knowledge, as they're the ones controlling where the finite resources are focused.

I wouldn't ever suggest that academia should replace experience, but at the same time, ignorance only breeds ignorance; and putting a (sole) front-liner in charge of meaningful decisions would usually end in disaster.

You see you're coming unstuck here in a major way.

It's generally held in the police that officers who are promoted very quickly due to academic achievements tend to make not only poor policemen but also tend to make very unusual and unpopular decisions when leading from the top.

From my own experience Sergeants, Inspectors and above who have made their way up the ranks steadily and through years of hard graft tend to understand the needs and stresses of the troops on the ground.

Edited by Radman, 07 March 2012 - 06:21 PM.

[Machiavelli]

You see you're coming unstuck here in a major way.

It's generally held in the police that officers who are promoted very quickly due to academic achievements tend to make not only poor policemen but also tend to make very unusual and unpopular decisions when leading from the top.

From my own experience Sergeants, Inspectors and above who have made their way up the ranks steadily and through years of hard graft tend to understand the needs and stresses of the troops on the ground.

I'm not coming unstuck at all. I never suggested anything or referred to academic achievements leading to overly-fast promotion in the police force. What I did say is that many police men are ignorant of the law from which they gain their authority, and that high ranking policemen need wider knowledge than just how to arrest and process prisoners, which is exactly what they have. Understanding the needs of your employees is something that comes from experience on the front, understanding what causes crime, and therefore the best way to deal with it, is not.

Try again.

Edited by Machiavelli, 07 March 2012 - 06:27 PM.

[Radman]

I'm not coming unstuck at all. I never suggested anything or referred to academic achievements leading to overly-fast promotion in the police force. What I did say is that many police men are ignorant of the law from which they gain their authority, and that high ranking policemen need wider knowledge than just how to arrest and process prisoners, which is exactly what they have.

Try again.

Fair enough...

I'd argue your main complaint is through laziness on individual officers part, not down to the level of education certain officers have. I'm no expert but I generally know
my powers and I know what I need to do in order to get a person successfully convicted at court.

I certainly wouldn't suggest most PCs were ignorant of the law...

It helps that in my job I have to put my own files together for court and not rely on hand-over teams, this will make officers ignorant and lazy in my opinion but I can understand why such units exist in busy force areas. However I'd say you certainly become alot more conscious of your powers and legal process when you are involved in a case from start to finish, dealing with everything in between.

[MacGregor]

Yes but the people who live in dream worlds who don't hold important big named positions in society generally cause little to no damage.

I'm not going to defend my point in any major way, you think it's narrow minded, I find it accurate and I'm sure I'm not the only one on here who thinks the same going off of previous topics.

My point still stands that someone actually doing the Job day in day out has a better understanding then someone externally going in with an agenda.

One thing I think we can agree on is that the current system ain't working.

But then not everyone who makes important decisions lives in a dreamworld and not every academic makes important decisions, two rather important points that you fail to mention. I won't try and second guess why you hold such a view of academics but I really do think it is far from accurate.

[David]

*nudges back to topic*

Can I ask your age, Machiavelli? I don't wish to cause offence, I ask because at the moment you sound the typical academic from leaving school with lots of book reading and theory without a lot of experience. I could be very wrong of course.

Where I will agree with you is that there does need to be rehabilitation of prisoners when inside, even when out, but the sad fact is that like it or not, some are beyond redemption and the inescapable truth is the longer they are inside, the safer we all are.

[Machiavelli]

*nudges back to topic*

Can I ask your age, Machiavelli? I don't wish to cause offence, I ask because at the moment you sound the typical academic from leaving school with lots of book reading and theory without a lot of experience. I could be very wrong of course.

Where I will agree with you is that there does need to be rehabilitation of prisoners when inside, even when out, but the sad fact is that like it or not, some are beyond redemption and the inescapable truth is the longer they are inside, the safer we all are.

22. However I would suggest that most people in this thread (barring obvious exceptions) do not have much actual experience with the penal system.

I also did not state at any point that there are no prisoners which are beyond redemption, only a fool would make that assumption.

As far as the 'typical academic' is concerned, you're way off base. I find education beyond boring, however I also find people who discount anything but first-hand experience are just as ignorant as those who sit within their 'ivory towers'.

Edited by Machiavelli, 07 March 2012 - 07:15 PM.

[David]

22. However I would suggest that most people in this thread (barring obvious exceptions) do not have much actual experience with the penal system.

Can I ask what yours is?

[Machiavelli]

Can I ask what yours is?

Certainly, reading back through the thread will give you your answer. Surely you didn't wade in with your opinion on me without having read what I actually said?

[David]

Certainly, reading back through the thread will give you your answer. Surely you didn't wade in with your opinion on me without having read what I actually said?

I've read what you have said. However, unless I've missed it, all I have seen is your - legitimate - opinions rather than your involvement.

Either way, why not just answer me instead of coming across as somewhat arrogant?

[Machiavelli]

I've read what you have said. However, unless I've missed it, all I have seen is your - legitimate - opinions rather than your involvement.

Either way, why not just answer me instead of coming across as somewhat arrogant?

Arrogant? Hardly. All too often people are willing to wade in without having even read the thread. Having just re-read my posts, I can maintain that, had you read my posts properly you would have known what my experience entails.

I have no direct involvement with prisoners, my involvement/contact is limited to members of charities/boards etc involved with prisoners' affairs, as well as scholars currently involved in studying vulnerable prisoners. The actual information upon which I base my opinions is based almost entirely on reports and the accounts of the people I have previously mentioned. However, I maintain that this does give an appreciation of the wider issues surrounding prisoners and re-offending patterns which could not be obtained from 'front line' experience alone. That being said, I do not say this with the intention of undermining first-hand experience with prisoners, which could obviously give a greater insight into their attitudes and emotional states.

Edited by Machiavelli, 07 March 2012 - 08:11 PM.

[David]

I have no direct involvement with prisoners, my involvement/contact is limited to members of charities/boards etc involved with prisoners' affairs, as well as scholars currently involved in studying vulnerable prisoners. The actual information upon which I base my opinions is based almost entirely on reports and the accounts of the people I have previously mentioned. However, I maintain that this does give an appreciation of the wider issues surrounding prisoners and re-offending patterns which could not be obtained from 'front line' experience alone. That being said, I do not say this with the intention of undermining first-hand experience with prisoners, which could obviously give a greater insight into their attitudes and emotional states.

So if we were to be honest, you have no more or no less experience than anyone else contributing to this thread?

By the way, I've reread the thread again and I am still missing where you actually state what you are basing your opinions on. Either way, they're no more or no less valid than anyone else's, and some of those expressing theirs have also had first-hand experience in working with ex-offenders and offending youth now - I am amongst them.

[Radman]

But then not everyone who makes important decisions lives in a dreamworld and not every academic makes important decisions, two rather important points that you fail to mention. I won't try and second guess why you hold such a view of academics but I really do think it is far from accurate.

You're entitled to your opinion just as I am to mine.

There's no great story or reason, just my experience...

[Machiavelli]

So if we were to be honest, you have no more or no less experience than anyone else contributing to this thread?

Did I ever suggest otherwise?

All I had done in my replies was state facts and form opinions based on them. I never suggested my opinion was worth more than that of another, I only argued that first hand experience isn't as useful as it would seem when considering what I continually refer to as 'the bigger picture'.

You're entitled to your opinion just as I am to mine.

There's no great story or reason, just my experience...

That's a dangerous path of reasoning for a PC..

Edited by Machiavelli, 07 March 2012 - 09:02 PM.

[Radman]

That's a dangerous path of reasoning for a PC..

What? By coming to conclusions through experience?

Yup, very dangerous way of doing things, I've done alright by it so far though...

People who know me on this forum know I have a habit of calling things as I see them. It's got me into bother once or twice but I feel that's the best policy to have in life.

Some may see it as arrogant or rash and sure I've been wrong before but I'll always hold my hands up and admit my mistakes (made plenty in the job so far and I'm sure I'll make many more in the next 32 years)

Edited by Radman, 07 March 2012 - 09:36 PM.

[Machiavelli]

What? By coming to conclusions through experience?

Yup, very dangerous way of doing things, I've done alright by it so far though...

People who know me on this forum know I have a habit of calling things as I see them. It's got me into bother once or twice but I feel that's the best policy to have in life.

Some may see it as arrogant or rash and sure I've been wrong before but I'll always hold my hands up and admit my mistakes (made plenty in the job so far and I'm sure I'll make many more in the next 32 years)

'drawing conclusions through experience' isn't really what I was referring to, more the broad categorisation of certain groups based purely on your dealings with a minority of them.

[Radman]

'drawing conclusions through experience' isn't really what I was referring to, more the broad categorisation of certain groups based purely on your dealings with a minority of them.

How do you know it's only a 'minority' of them in my experience?

I wouldn't class 'Academics' as a group either if I'm being honest.

[Machiavelli]

How do you know it's only a 'minority' of them in my experience?

I wouldn't class 'Academics' as a group either if I'm being honest.

Of course it's only a minority of them, unless you're trying to tell me you've met more than half of all academics.

And of course they're a group; not a race, religion or nation, but a group nonetheless.

[Radman]

Of course it's only a minority of them, unless you're trying to tell me you've met more than half of all academics.

And of course they're a group; not a race, religion or nation, but a group nonetheless.

You still aren't reading what im writing, in my experience the academics I've met within the job and public sector are nothing short of dire and often are in the job for the wrong reasons, not in all cases but I certainly wouldn't say it was the minority. Those that are in the job for the right reasons tend to have very unusual views on the world and how things should be done, such as prioritising the rights of a criminal over that of the general law abiding members of public.

I could list numerous high profile examples of bad decisions being forced through because of meddling, the current prison situation being one such issue the other is the 'care in the community' schemes in place by most Health authorities where people with severe mental illness are out walking the streets unsupervised. This has led to not only deaths but these people are effectively left to fend for themselves and we the police are constantly called to them.... When social workers on the ground take over all of them agree the people shouldnt be out in the community as they are but what can be done? That's the policy.

Then of course there's the general social breakdown of respect with young 'persons' who seem to be under the impression they can do whatever they want without consequence because of their perceived 'rights.'

Or the justice system that hands down inappropriate and lenient sentences...

You ask the majority of the public what they think to the current state of the country and I think you'll be very surprised as to their reply. Most normal people are fed up with the current state of affairs but nothing is changing...

Sometimes common sense should prevail.

Of course it's only a minority of them, unless you're trying to tell me you've met more than half of all academics.

And of course they're a group; not a race, religion or nation, but a group nonetheless.

You still aren't reading what im writing, in my experience the academics I've met within the job and public sector are nothing short of dire and often are in the job for the wrong reasons, not in all cases but I certainly wouldn't say it was the minority. Those that are in the job for the right reasons tend to have very unusual views on the world and how things should be done, such as prioritising the rights of a criminal over that of the general law abiding members of public.

I could list numerous high profile examples of bad decisions being forced through because of meddling, the current prison situation being one such issue the other is the 'care in the community' schemes in place by most Health authorities where people with severe mental illness are out walking the streets unsupervised. This has led to not only deaths but these people are effectively left to fend for themselves and we the police are constantly called to them.... When social workers on the ground take over all of them agree the people shouldnt be out in the community as they are but what can be done? That's the policy.

Then of course there's the general social breakdown of respect with young 'persons' who seem to be under the impression they can do whatever they want without consequence because of their perceived 'rights.'

Or the justice system that hands down inappropriate and lenient sentences...

You ask the majority of the public what they think to the current state of the country and I think you'll be very surprised as to their reply. Most normal people are fed up with the current state of affairs but nothing is changing...

Sometimes common sense should prevail.

[Machiavelli]

You still aren't reading what im writing, in my experience the academics I've met within the job and public sector are nothing short of dire and often are in the job for the wrong reasons, not in all cases but I certainly wouldn't say it was the minority. Those that are in the job for the right reasons tend to have very unusual views on the world and how things should be done, such as prioritising the rights of a criminal over that of the general law abiding members of public.

I could list numerous high profile examples of bad decisions being forced through because of meddling, the current prison situation being one such issue the other is the 'care in the community' schemes in place by most Health authorities where people with severe mental illness are out walking the streets unsupervised. This has led to not only deaths but these people are effectively left to fend for themselves and we the police are constantly called to them.... When social workers on the ground take over all of them agree the people shouldnt be out in the community as they are but what can be done? That's the policy.

Then of course there's the general social breakdown of respect with young 'persons' who seem to be under the impression they can do whatever they want without consequence because of their perceived 'rights.'

Or the justice system that hands down inappropriate and lenient sentences...

You ask the majority of the public what they think to the current state of the country and I think you'll be very surprised as to their reply. Most normal people are fed up with the current state of affairs but nothing is changing...

Sometimes common sense should prevail.

I'm reading exactly what you're writing, that you're not writing what you mean is your own fault, not mine.

Why should he?

He does the job day after day, the academic does not and whilst very educated and qualified (im sure) they aren't the ones with the experience or are the ones doing the job - they are however unfortunately the people who have the final say on most matters. In my humble opinion, first hand, front-line experience trumps any academic finding or report.

The age old saying that academics tend not to live in the real world or dont have much common sense holds true in my opinion, if decisions were made by the people actually doing the jobs then the country would be better for it (viva revolution my fellow working comrades! Or something like that... )

The police service is riddled with instances of outside meddling which have caused many more problems and made the job harder for the people on the frontline.

Yes but the people who live in dream worlds who don't hold important big named positions in society generally cause little to no damage.

I'm not going to defend my point in any major way, you think it's narrow minded, I find it accurate and I'm sure I'm not the only one on here who thinks the same going off of previous topics.

My point still stands that someone actually doing the Job day in day out has a better understanding then someone externally going in with an agenda.

One thing I think we can agree on is that the current system ain't working.

Anyone can see here some sweeping generalisations. It's not out of character for people in a position such as a PC, where dealing with useless people day in and day out tends to breed cynicism, but at the same time, like I said, it's a dangerous path of reasoning to find acceptable. SOME academics have no common sense or don't live 'in the real world'; MOST are just intelligent or well educated.

As this is the internet, I'm not particularly bothered if you genuinely hold the anti-academic agenda you imply, it is of little consequence to me anyway, but to say that I'm not reading what you're writing is inaccurate.

EDIT: Just FYI, I agree with a few points you've made, particularly with the seemingly growing amount of young people starting to have what they consider an awareness of their 'rights'.

Edited by Machiavelli, 08 March 2012 - 04:21 PM.