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Winsor Report - Part 2

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#26 Straightjacket

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 11:40 AM

Have just seen that 2 x A levels (grade A -C) or equivalent are required for applying for Regs.

How many of you out there would fulfill that requirement? I know that most of my NPT classmates (many moons ago) would not have.

I know that there has to be a gauge for educational ability (which unfortunately seems to be lacking at times) but is this not setting the bar too high? A lot of ex-service men who this job used to be filled with will not have those, I know quite a few experienced and ranking officers that would not fulfill that requirement.

The Police has always been one of those professional jobs that there is a mix of education levels GCSE through to degree, but if everyone has to be A level or above are we not trying to recruit from the field of people that would typically be looking for higher paid jobs than the Police service?

#27 jvt1

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 11:47 AM

"or equivalent " -

Could that not include relevant life experience? i.e military service etc

EDIT - Grammar

Edited by jvt1, 15 March 2012 - 11:48 AM.


#28 Burnsy2023

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 11:52 AM

"or equivalent " -

Could that not include relevant life experience? i.e military service etc

EDIT - Grammar


I think it's referring to other qualifications that have a-level equivalence, like a BTEC National Diploma is equivalent to 3 a-levels. NVQs are also applicable and these are often awarded in the army, but I don't think life experience would be.

#29 Davies2201

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 11:53 AM

I think raising education and fitness levels will benefit the service. However, I am not so keen on the idea that people can enter the service at inspector level and above. Though it works for the military?

#30 hathaway

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 11:53 AM

"or equivalent " -

Could that not include relevant life experience? i.e military service etc


I suspect that would simply be referring to A-level alternatives, under the NQF here (level 3): http://en.wikipedia....tions_Framework

#31 SBG

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 11:54 AM

Well thats me out!

#32 jvt1

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 11:55 AM

I think it's referring to other qualifications that have a-level equivalence, like a BTEC National Diploma is equivalent to 3 a-levels. NVQs are also applicable and these are often awarded in the army, but I don't think life experience would be.


Oops! Reading that again I see what you mean...

#33 Burnsy2023

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 11:59 AM

Well thats me out!


You can borrow my degree if you want....Posted Image

#34 Stumblebum

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 11:59 AM

Well thats me out!



Me too!!!
How on earth did I make it to Sgt :)

#35 SBG

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:00 PM

Thanks - I do have an HNC in Civil Engineering - does that count?

#36 CmdKeen

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:02 PM

The armed forces offer resettlement time when leaving, and free educational opportunities as well as paid educational grants (after a few years service) - which means that it would be possible for people leaving in the future to gain the qualifications to meet these requirements even if the various certificates etc they picked up in their service didn't amount to the "equivalent" rating.


Asking whether people would have made it in before is a bit pointless to be frank. Many jobs have people "grandfathered in" where what they left school / university with wouldn't get them in the door these days, especially in professional careers. Grade inflation alone, let along the proliferation of people even being encouraged to stay on in school over the past 30/40 years alone would see to that.

It is not hard to pick up a few A levels these days, and frankly given the mind numbing amount of paperwork you seem to fill in south of the border if you don't like sitting in an office writing stuff then the police isn't for you...

#37 Lord Vader

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:02 PM

Updated on the BBC now they've had chance to digest the key proposals:

Police officer's fitness could be checked annually with disciplinary procedures facing any officer who fails the test three times.

The recommendation is among major changes to police pay and recruitment in an independent review commissioned by Home Secretary Theresa May.

The review, by Tom Winsor, says there should be higher minimum educational standards for new police recruits.

It says some should join directly as inspectors and superintendents.

The BBC's home affairs correspondent Danny Shaw said under the review - which only affects England and Wales - chief constables would have powers to make police officers compulsorily redundant to cut costs - at present they can do this only if police have served for 30 years or more.

There would also be new powers to remove police officers who are on restricted duties and cannot return to work.

The report found 52% of male officers in the Metropolitan Police were overweight and 1% were "morbidly obese".

But the former West Midlands chief constable Sir Edward Crew, who worked on the review, said: "We are not looking for supermen."

In a response to the report, the Police Federation's Chairman, Paul McKeever, said: "Police officers have had enough of the constant state of uncertainty and the deliberate, sustained attack on them by this government.

"They want to get on with the job they joined to do, serving their communities, and they expect the support of government. Instead they find themselves contending with cuts to pay and conditions of service, increased stress and pressures."

Mr Winsor said: "It is clear that the existing pay system is unfair and inefficient. It was designed in 1920 and has remained largely unchanged since 1978."

But he added: "Officers who work on the front line, exercising their powers as constables in the most difficult circumstances, have nothing to fear from this review."

Salary cut
Mr Winsor suggests police constables' starting salaries should be cut by up to £4,500, pointing out that vacancies are often "heavily oversubscribed".

Starting salaries would fall from £23,500 at present to £19,000 or £21,000, depending on qualifications.

Constables would be able to move up the pay ladder more quickly but a "specialist skills threshold" should be introduced at the final pay point of all officer pay scales.

This would consist of a "rigorous test" of the knowledge and skills required in each role and rank.

The retirement age would be raised to 60 and a new system of negotiating pay rates set up.

Mr Winsor says, together with the reforms already being implemented under the first part of his review, there would be gross savings of £1.9bn over six years, two-thirds of which will be re-invested in policing.

Mr McKeever said police officers had already made a significant contribution to tackle the national debt: "We've seen a minimum 20% cut to the police budget; the loss of 16,000 police officers expected over the next 4 years; £300m removed from police pay; increased pension contributions; a two-year public sector pay freeze and then a capped 1% increase in years three and four.

"How much more are police officers expected to take?," he added.

'More complex'
The Association of Chief Police Officers' lead on workforce development, Chief Constable Peter Fahy, said: "Police forces are facing a huge financial challenge but the need to reform the way our staff are rewarded and developed is not driven by money alone.

"Policing has become far more complex and specialised. Our staff want to see their individual talent and contribution recognised and the public want to see police effort targeted where it will have most impact.

"Chief officers have been clear that we will need radical approaches to absorb the current and future budget cuts and maintain the protection of the public. At the same time we must not put in danger the core ethos of service and self-sacrifice in policing that has served this country well."


Source: BBC News

#38 Burnsy2023

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:03 PM

Thanks - I do have an HNC in Civil Engineering - does that count?


That would probably count, yes, its a level 5 qual, so that would probably be enough to count for 2 level 3 quals.

#39 Gallifrey

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:05 PM

What a typical politicians answer by Peter Fahy :) , still I suppose at his rank they've forgotten what it means to be an officer doing earlies lates and nights. If they' re going to be able to make me redundant then I want all the rights that go hand in hand with being an employee( and which we don't currently have), in particular the right to strike, how Winsor thinks we can be made redundant but still no mention of giving us the right to withdraw our labour, I'll never know :strop:

Edited by Gallifrey, 15 March 2012 - 12:50 PM.


#40 andituk

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:08 PM

Where did you see that?

I hope thats not the case, or I'm in trouble!

#41 callsign-kid

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:08 PM

I think raising education and fitness levels will benefit the service. However, I am not so keen on the idea that people can enter the service at inspector level and above. Though it works for the military?


It was tried in 1935 by Trenchard, it didn't work then and I very much doubt it will work now since police work has become much more complex.

#42 CmdKeen

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:10 PM

I don't see why people with business skills need to be able to enter at Inspector. That is what civilian posts are for, the MoD don't make all their business bods military officers after all. It already happens in loads of civilian posts.

The real question is whether there need to be nearly as many senior officer posts as there actually are at all...

It might be an interesting time to bring in PC Copperfield's writings about his move to Canada from the UK and the massive difference he found there. Where almost every officer was regularly out and about, senior officers were fewer in number and more closely involved with the front line, and priorities derived from the local community not central government.
We don't need to reinvent policing, we need to look to other countries to see what they are doing - and shockingly it often involves the ideals Britain had 30+ years ago...

And if you can't keep yourself fit enough to pass 5.4 on the bleep test then frankly you are a risk on the front line. It doesn't require gym membership, it requires you to own a pair of running shoes and go for a bit of phys every so often. I know people in the military who can keep themselves passing the much harder fitness test there by going for one run a week, if you can't find 30+ minutes a week to keep yourself active then you're basically wiping years off your life - it isn't a career thing it is a life thing.

#43 Gallifrey

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:10 PM

Just seen one of the recommendations

That will be a bloody big wake up call and its one I agree with

So what about officers who have been compulsarily transferred into Metcall working 24/7 shifts, despatching units or taking 999 calls and often having their days cancelled with very little notice, should they have their paycut or officers who have gone there to gain experience and are then are unable to leave, should they lose money?

#44 Blandy

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:12 PM

Where did you see that?

I hope thats not the case, or I'm in trouble!


I may be too, although I'm doing A levels now, I'm only doing two.

Straight, where did you see this? As I may need to reconsider what i'm doing for the next two years.

#45 shinyboots

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:17 PM

I agree that the current fitness requirements on entry into the police force are not stringent enough. Level 5.4 on a bleep test is in no way a challenge like the tests performed if you want to join the police in Scotland. The 1.5 mile run they do is based on the British Army Personal Fitness Assessment (PFA) which is carried by all army personnel twice annually. Royal Navy and RAF personnel have something similar. Quite simply, you are asked to run a 1.5 mile course in a time that is based on your age and gender. I, for example, am a 40 year old male and I have maximum time of 12 minutes in which to get round. A female of my age has 14.5 minutes to achieve this. If you are out of shape then I admit these tests are difficult to pass but they're not beyond anyone with the will and determination to succeed! I did mine yesterday in 10 mins 50 secs.


As for the strength testing side of things, the push pull dyno tests have too low a benchmark as well. You will need a lot more than 35 or 36 kg of force exerted on your average non compliant thug to bring him or her under control! In order to show some balance here, Scottish forces don't currently undergo strength and resistance testing. As a final thought, maybe the Civil Nuclear Constabulary have the right idea - Level 7.4 on the bleep test across the board for all ages - male or female?

#46 Smiley Culture

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:21 PM

Presumably the PLC is at the same educational level - or is that me making an unwarranted assumption of joined-up thinking between recruiters and education providers?

Edited by Smiley Culture, 15 March 2012 - 12:41 PM.


#47 SkinSte

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:25 PM

So what about officers who have been compulsarily transferred into Metcall working 24/7 shifts, despatching units or taking 999 calls and often having their days cancelled with very little notice, should they have their paycut or officers who have gone there to gain experience and are then are unable to leave, should they lose money?


Those poor metcall folk, having their rest days cancelled. You wouldn't get that on Team!

#48 wanabe

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:26 PM

So where does this leave current specials who don't have A levels?? No mans land??

#49 Police Constable 1

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:26 PM

So what about officers who have been compulsarily transferred into Metcall working 24/7 shifts, despatching units or taking 999 calls and often having their days cancelled with very little notice, should they have their paycut or officers who have gone there to gain experience and are then are unable to leave, should they lose money?

No but those that think "I've had enough of walking round, think I will go and sit in an intel unit and do 9 to 5 for a few years" or "I'm a PC but I cant go out on patrol, or wear a uniform, or work passed 5pm so I will sit here and go through the property system every day" or "Yes I might be on NPT but my back hurts when I stand up so I cant actually go anywhere"

Its those that need targeting and I think they will be with this new proposal, it may seem unfair to an extent but it will stop people becoming lazy

#50 Adamski

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:27 PM

This annoys me.

I'm an intelligent individual. I write well, I can do maths better than 90% of school leavers these days, and I hold down a well paying job. At this rate, I won't be able to apply to the Regs because I couldn't be bothered in College and didn't try hard enough. Yes, it's my own fault, but I see it as the Service's loss.

Guess I'll have to go do some A-Levels if I want to join the Regs.





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