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Winsor Report - Part 2

winsor review regulars police pay winsor winsor review regulars police pay

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#426 Cuddles

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 03:42 PM

Dont shoot me, but I wouldnt even say a grade 1 was an exigency of service, its an expected occurrence in every single shift.

To me, exigency of service would be a riot, short notice call to court, or sudden staff shortage where they needed to change your duty not a grade 1 because there is no-one else to go. Now I'm not saying we dont turn out to them as we do but it wouldnt fall in the definition not that there is one


You see I would have thought that a grade 1 falls perfectly into the definition of "a pressing need or requirement which cannot be reasonably avoided", especially when we are paid for our refs break, which means that we must be available to tip out if required. Your examples would fit the definition for a rest day cancelled at short notice, shift change, etc, but this is refs I'm on about, which is a slightly different scenario. I'm not sure where you're coming from with the "its an expected occurrence in every single shift" because that's not what the definition of an exigency is on about.

Let's say you're on refs and all other patrols are tied up dealing with jobs. A grade 1 comes in, an ongoing DV assault, there is your pressing need or requirement. Can it be reasonably avoided? No, all other patrols are tied up and there is a need for a patrol immediately. Sure, somebody may be able to free themselves up but we have a patrol at the nick that is on a meal break that they are being paid for. It is therefore much more reasonable to send that patrol that is on their meal break rather than hoping that somebody can free themselves and I would argue that it fits the definition of an exigency perfectly.

By the way, there is a definition of an exigency. It is in my post above.

#427 Police Constable 1

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 03:56 PM

You see I would have thought that a grade 1 falls perfectly into the definition of "a pressing need or requirement which cannot be reasonably avoided", especially when we are paid for our refs break, which means that we must be available to tip out if required. Your examples would fit the definition for a rest day cancelled at short notice, shift change, etc, but this is refs I'm on about, which is a slightly different scenario. I'm not sure where you're coming from with the "its an expected occurrence in every single shift" because that's not what the definition of an exigency is on about.

Let's say you're on refs and all other patrols are tied up dealing with jobs. A grade 1 comes in, an ongoing DV assault, there is your pressing need or requirement. Can it be reasonably avoided? No, all other patrols are tied up and there is a need for a patrol immediately. Sure, somebody may be able to free themselves up but we have a patrol at the nick that is on a meal break that they are being paid for. It is therefore much more reasonable to send that patrol that is on their meal break rather than hoping that somebody can free themselves and I would argue that it fits the definition of an exigency perfectly.

By the way, there is a definition of an exigency. It is in my post above.


Sorry, just saw the definition on a couple of federation sites, I guess it is defined and I was wrong on my whole post

As for my "its an expected occurrence" bit, that was referring to the fact that I was under the impression exigence just covered unforeseen incidents which I highlighted, although a garde 1 incident is unforeseen in what the incident is, a grade 1 call coming in (for what ever it is) isnt unforseen as we all know that generally at some point in the shift there will be one.

Edited by Police Constable 1, 11 June 2012 - 03:57 PM.


#428 Hades

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 06:02 PM

EWD does apply to us and we are entitled to 11 hours between shifts.... except for exigencies of duty (which has to be something quite serious and unplanned).... if you have a document that states otherwise then please let me know.... the EWD wont get you out of a shift but you can insist on going in later for example. There are also quite clear rules around time set aside for refs depending on the hours you are working that day. Again the exingencies proviso kicks in but managers are supposed to do everything possible to ensure that sufficient breaks are provided.
Section 9 - http://www.dppf.org/...orking_time.pdf



Absolutely!


The Regulations don't require that you will have 11 hours between shifts, just that rotas allow 11 hours between planned shifts and that in the event that you don't actually get 11 hours you shall get equivilent compensatory rest. It's in the document you linked to! My point was that you don't have an automatic right to just rock up hours late for a shift just because you finished less than 11 hours previously.

As for an Extingency Of Duty- what constitutes one is massively wide ranging, and for the most part the Federation generally go along the lines that almost anything the job wants *could* constitute one!

#429 JackDaniels

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:31 PM

The Regulations don't require that you will have 11 hours between shifts, just that rotas allow 11 hours between planned shifts and that in the event that you don't actually get 11 hours you shall get equivilent compensatory rest. It's in the document you linked to! My point was that you don't have an automatic right to just rock up hours late for a shift just because you finished less than 11 hours previously.

As for an Extingency Of Duty- what constitutes one is massively wide ranging, and for the most part the Federation generally go along the lines that almost anything the job wants *could* constitute one!


Indeed.... no one has an automatic right to anything.... even the good old HRA has plenty of caveats...

What concerns me is many employers... (not just the Met) are happy to trample over their employee's who are generally ill informed, concerned about losing their jobs and not being able to pay the bills, or believe "it is just the way it is", to question their employers policies and practices. Don't get wrong I am not some raving socialist, far from it... I've been on the other side of the fence too as "management" and know plenty who have or do run their own businesses. I have also known plenty of people who do try it on, give an inch and take a mile.

Of course this is no 9 - 5 job and a bit of good will and give and take is the only practical way to get the job done.... of course I've had just a few hours before between shifts in the past, but with Winsor the "Get the job done/make it work" mentality should stop. On that basis I would obviously ask for compensatory rest and in the current climate don't feel it unreasonable to be granted it.

#430 CmdKeen

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 09:19 AM

but with Winsor the "Get the job done/make it work" mentality should stop. On that basis I would obviously ask for compensatory rest and in the current climate don't feel it unreasonable to be granted it.


I think this is key. Whole chunks of the Winsor proposals have most people saying "in theory fair enough but we don't trust our force / ACPO / the Government to not shaft us". Which isn't really Winsors fault* - starting a review into police pay and conditions with an acceptance that leadership is incapable is pretty pointless.

The getting the job done mentality, whilst good, is responsible for the whole host of other bad changes that have happened, not just Winsor. The denuding of response teams over the past decades, the arrival of paperwork en masse, the CPS (see paperwork) all don't get reformed / exposed because they wheels never quite come off.

* I'm not saying you don't have the right to blame him for nothing

#431 Sam Vimes

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 12:48 PM

An interesting response from the PolFed today regarding pensions. Full letter to The Witch here;

http://www.polfed.or...3476FAFF130.asp

In a nutshell, it seems to be suggesting that the proposed reforms of pensions are in fact illegal!

The application of change to existing members

Our first concern is about the application of the changes to existing members of the PPS and NPPS.

As you acknowledge in your letter, police officers make a vital contribution to society by committing their working lives to supporting and protecting their communities. To date, the commitment encouraged by the State and provided by our members has been a long one, often for a full career. This is not surprising, given the importance of the role of police officers to society and the degree of commitment required by officers.

The design of the pension scheme has been an important element in the overall covenant. Our current members decided on a police career, with all that entails in terms of responsibility and risk and the implications for their social and family lives, in part on the understanding that the police service would repay their commitment by looking after them in various ways, including by providing them with a decent standard of living in retirement, at an age before the rigours of the job were likely to become too great.

The provisions of the Police Pensions Act 1976 (“the Act”) and the current Police Pensions Regulations confirm the nature of the agreement. Section 2 of the Act provides, in short, that any new pensions regulations must secure for existing members of police forces no worse provision in relation to compulsory retirement age or scale of pensions than that which would have applied if the new regulations had not come into force. The design of the Police Pension Scheme, governed by the Police Pensions Regulations 1987, with double accrual after 20 years, is manifestly intended to encourage officers to serve for 30 years. While the New Police Pension Scheme does not have double accrual, it encourages officers to serve until the age of 55 to secure immediate payment of their pension.

Section 2 of the Act prevents the current proposals being implemented. We have not so far been informed of an intention to repeal section 2. If that is proposed, then we will consider the detail and the legality of any such proposal.

However, in any event, we suggest that the most appropriate response is to make any new scheme applicable only to new recruits. This avoids any legal issue, as it does not breach section 2. It is also consistent with what existing members understood, both from the express provisions to which we refer above, and more generally, about the nature of their covenant with the police service.

This will also have the advantage of avoiding many of the issues that would arise if new arrangements were applied to existing members (as set out in more detail in the remainder of this letter). The remainder of this letter is without prejudice to our position that the new arrangements cannot be lawfully applied to existing members.



#432 Fenix

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 03:24 PM

An interesting response from the PolFed today regarding pensions. Full letter to The Witch here;

http://www.polfed.or...3476FAFF130.asp

In a nutshell, it seems to be suggesting that the proposed reforms of pensions are in fact illegal!


Interesting... my view (unsurprisingly) is that when you sign up to the Police and research the pay, pension etc. then you should be able to rely on the fact that its what you're going to get at the end of it. Extra years and % increases shouldn't be allowed. I don't hold out much hope regarding the Home Secretary response, however.

#433 Lucozade

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 09:41 AM


Bayley (1985) identified three major characteristics of modern policing:

1. It is public as opposed to private, i.e. having a national rather than a local mandate and being responsible to the public at large rather than to any particular vested interest.
2. It is professional as opposed to non-professional, i.e. being bound by rules, prescribed training and conditions of employment which reflect desirable behaviours.
3. It is specialised as opposed to unspecialised, i.e. focuses on defined occupational activities and is underpinned by vocational loyalty.

Sadly the above is obviously on it's way out.


#434 Transducer09

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 07:56 AM

Loved watching him at the select committees, didn't have a clue!

#435 Sam Vimes

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 11:52 AM

So Winsor has been confirmed as the next HMCIC... awesome.

Sometimes I feel we're the only honest people in the world... everyone you see and hear about seems to be on a gravy train of some sort, and no matter how much you shout and plead and beg for the people supposedly representing you to listen to your concerns, you're just ignored.

TJF.

#436 Transducer09

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:58 PM

Quite worrying when you look at the starting salary he proposes for officers (19k) compared to his 200k... if we were looking at 2012/13 tax year, including pension contributions of 9.5%, a new officer would be getting a NET salary of around 14k a year - equate it to an officer working 40 hours a week (not including any extra hours needed!) it comes to:

£1167 per month OR £269 a week OR £6.73 an hour............. fair now, Winsor? Pathetic...

Edited by Millman, 04 July 2012 - 10:05 PM.


#437 honestyvo

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 01:48 PM

Please excuse my noobness in terms of the Winsor report. I have a few questions - although i've read the majority of the thread here there has obviously been conflicting information:

1. when is the winsor report finalised?
2. the entry requirements into a full-time regular police officer role will be - 3 A-Level (A-C) OR service as a special constable/pcso?
3. the proposal is for police officers to start at 19k unless they have served as a special constable before hand? or is it a-levels and special constable service?
4. once the winsor report is finalised would that mean all the forces across the country would have to follow it to the letter? from entry to pensions? or will some forces 'tweak' them a little?

thanks a lot everyone.

#438 CmdKeen

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:36 PM

To quote from the report:

Recommendation 3 – From April 2013, an additional qualification should be added to the
list required for appointment to a police force in Regulation 10 of the Police Regulations
2003. Candidates eligible for appointment to a police force should have either a Level
3 qualification, or a police qualification which is recognised by the sector skills council,
Skills for Justice, or service as a special constable or service as a PCSO (or another staff
role which the chief officer is satisfied provides appropriate experience). The chief officer
should have a discretion in relation to which of these criteria should apply to applicants for
entry to his force.


external entrants will join the service on pay point 1 (£21,000 per
annum) of the constable pay scale recommended in Chapter 7. This is normally reserved for
those with previous experience as a special constable or PCSO or holders of a new certified
policing qualification (see earlier in this Chapter), with point 0 (£19,000 per annum) for those
with no policing background or qualification.


So it is:
Special (21)
OR PCSO (21)
OR Policing qualification (21)
OR A levels (19)

#439 honestyvo

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:53 PM

To quote from the report:




So it is:
Special (21)
OR PCSO (21)
OR Policing qualification (21)
OR A levels (19)


thank you very much CmDKeen for your reply :). will i be right to assume the winsor report will be enforced in april 2013?
and in terms of question 4 - what are your thoughts?

thanks again :)

#440 CmdKeen

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 03:02 PM

No idea about implementation timescales.

The recommendation says Chief Constables should have discretion, but it depends how any legal changes to the relevant acts are made. Given several forces already operate a requirement to be a special or PCSO, or to undertake their own policing qualification, already I would imagine that given the number of people applying for every open place extra requirements will be added.

Were requirement numbers to drop off then perhaps educational standards might be relaxed. The report seeks to justify the lower pay for those without prior policing experience/qualification on the basis of the extra training costs, so forces are likely to prefer candidates that are cheaper to train.

Pay and pensions are centrally set as far as I'm aware.

#441 honestyvo

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 03:27 PM

No idea about implementation timescales.

The recommendation says Chief Constables should have discretion, but it depends how any legal changes to the relevant acts are made. Given several forces already operate a requirement to be a special or PCSO, or to undertake their own policing qualification, already I would imagine that given the number of people applying for every open place extra requirements will be added.

Were requirement numbers to drop off then perhaps educational standards might be relaxed. The report seeks to justify the lower pay for those without prior policing experience/qualification on the basis of the extra training costs, so forces are likely to prefer candidates that are cheaper to train.

Pay and pensions are centrally set as far as I'm aware.


Thanks a lot for the indepth clarification - you have been very helpful :).

#442 Super Simon

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 06:18 PM

So much to read. Sorry just a quick question. There are several rumours and I really need a proper answer. I am told that all officers will recieve their increments up to three years service and then nothing until everyone starts to recieve their increments again. Is this true? Will officers in training get a fair pay deal or not?

#443 SkinSte

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 05:03 PM

From memory, pay increments are currently suspended for two years except for those on the first 3 pay points, so as a probationer you are unaffected by the pay increment freeze.

#444 Sam Vimes

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 08:51 AM

So at the end of it someone just out of their probation will earn the same as someone with over double the length of time in.... Yeah, Probationers sure are getting a good deal. Apparently your house bills aren't subject to increases like ours are...

#445 Donatello

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 09:04 PM

Ian Rennie – Statement to the PNB full board

24 July 2012


From the outset of these negotiations on Winsor Part Two Staff Side entered with a positive frame of mind in the expectation that we would be able to reach a negotiated settlement which met the requirements of the Official Side while respecting the concerns and legitimate fears of Staff Side and the police officers of England and Wales that we represent.
We were encouraged by the Official Side’s stated intention to reach a collective agreement through constructive dialogue. In recent weeks that intention on the part of the Official Side appears to have evaporated as positions for negotiations have been replaced by positions of principle. These really should have been identified at an earlier stage.
The Official Side previously indicated that they hoped to get an early sense of Staff Side’s views and also that Staff Side would put forward its own views. Therefore, in the hope of reaching an agreement, Staff Side has made the following proposals in respect of each of the recommendations which the Home Secretary asked the PNB to consider.
Compulsory severance
With regard to compulsory severance, the power already exists within Police Regulations to dismiss officers for professional misconduct or unsatisfactory performance.
That is not the issue here.
A power to make police officers redundant would directly conflict with the Office of Constable.
Staff Side has agreed to changes to Regulation A19 and the introduction of a voluntary exit scheme. Neither of these have been used by forces and the relevant regulations have not even been published yet.
When Staff Side agreed to the changes to A19 and the introduction of a voluntary severance scheme it was on the understanding that there would not be a compulsory severance scheme.
The effectiveness and impact of both these changes need to be considered before deciding if a compulsory severance scheme is necessary.
Furthermore, the election of Police and Crime Commissioners has the potential to change policing forever. The impact that their introduction will have on the service needs to be properly considered before introducing a compulsory severance scheme that could be detrimental to the independence of police officers.
All we ask is that any discussion of the relevant Winsor Part Two recommendations is deferred until the impact of these changes can be properly assessed so that they can be taken into consideration during any future discussions. It is disappointing that the Official Side could not agree to this.
Specialist Protection Officers’ overtime
In respect of overtime for Specialist Protection Officers, the Official Side has so far been unable to provide any evidence in support of buying it out. Staff Side cannot, therefore, accept this recommendation on the basis of our concerns that any removal of casual overtime in favour of a fixed allowance would see the excessive working hours of officers in those roles continue or increase.
Staff Side agrees the Official Side’s request for additional time to give this matter consideration.
I am sure the fact will not be missed that our position contrasts with that of the Official Side in respect of compulsory severance.
 
On-call
In respect of on-call, Staff Side is aware of the economic climate forces are operating within. Given Staff Side’s concerns, shared by the PAT, about the low value of the proposed on-call allowance, and the 12 occasions which officers would have to do for no payment, Staff Side has agreed not to pursue a national on-call allowance at this time. Forces should, however, be required to collect the necessary management data on the use of on-call which can inform both Sides in the future. I am pleased we have agreed that this will take place. Not pursuing this claim is a significant concession by Staff Side.
Regional allowances
In respect of regional allowances, Staff Side believes that, in agreeing to PNB Circular 1/11, it has already agreed to the flexibility which this recommendation seeks to introduce.
Staff Side has been clear throughout that removal of this payment should not be a sanction for unsatisfactory performance.
However, to meet the stated requirements of the Official Side, Staff Side signalled its willingness to consider reducing the minimum amount payable subject to there being no reduction in the total value of the amount of money currently allocated for the payment of regional allowances in the South East forces. Staff Side also offered to concede that a regional allowance may be removed from an officer on long-term sickness absence in circumstances where they are no longer in receipt of police pay, a long-standing proposal of the Official Side.
Pay reform
Winsor has already tried and failed to abolish competence-related threshold payments. The PAT rejected this proposal. There is a long-term and permanent impact upon police officer pensions from the removal of CRTPs. All officers who were recruited into the police service under the current pay structure have a legitimate expectation that, as long as they meet the specific criteria, they are eligible to access CRTP. That is why, from April 2014, for serving officers the top pay point should be £37,731, incorporating the value of CRTP.
Winsor also tried and failed to introduce an interim Expertise and Professional Accreditation Allowance for just four roles.
Having failed to convince the PAT of the merits of this allowance, the Official Side has simply proposed it again but at half of its original value.
The PAT acknowledged Staff Side’s concerns that there had been no real analysis of why Winsor had chosen these four particular roles and stated that “the question of additional reward for expertise or time served in specific roles and/or application of accredited skills or qualifications is inextricably related to issues to do with the design of a new pay structure, including how the value or relative weight of jobs will be determined”.
Staff Side again rejects the proposed EPAA on the basis that the differences in pay for the roles proposed by Winsor are unfair, unable to be justified and could result in potential legal challenge by increasing the gender pay gap.
However, Staff Side has been willing to engage in genuine reform of the pay structure, including discussion on our long-desired objective of reducing the length of the constables’ payscale. Under Staff Side’s proposed payscale, as with Winsor’s recommendation, following the completion of probation, progression between pay points would take place on the basis of one year’s service and a satisfactory box marking in the end-of-year appraisal. The continued retention of the top pay point would also depend upon the achievement of a satisfactory rating in the end-of-year appraisal. This scale allows for the introduction of a Foundation Skills Threshold provided that the service could develop and agree an appropriate basis and mechanism to support this approach. It also allows for a Specialist Skills Threshold to access the top of scale, subject to a proper evaluation of roles to provide a justification for differences in pay and avoid unfairness and potential legal challenge.
From the outset of these negotiations we explained our concerns about the proposals to cut the starting rates for police officers. We believe this will have a damaging impact upon the calibre of recruits to the police service. The starting rate reflects the need to attract mature recruits to the Service the average age being currently 27. We know that many even now take an initial drop in salary with the prospect of earning more as they progress in their career. It therefore seems counter-intuitive in the extreme for the Official Side and Winsor to discuss recruiting a higher standard of recruit whilst recommending less pay to attract them.
Staff Side also believes, in line with the principles it set out at the April meeting of the PNB, that at the end of the progression freeze in April 2014, officers should move to the pay point commensurate with their reckonable service.
In attempting to reach an agreement, Staff Side was willing to extend the current public sector pay freeze for members of the Federated Ranks in England and Wales until April 2015. Not only would this have yielded substantial savings for forces across England and Wales, it would also have achieved Winsor’s stated aim of bringing the annual pay award for police officers into line with the majority of groups in the rest of the public sector.
Our proposed changes to the payscale, despite the concessions we were willing to offer to achieve the reduction in its length, would have come at a cost. Of that there is no doubt.
That cost would have been an extra £10 million between now and 2017-18.  That should be measured against more than £450 million already due to be removed from police officers’ pay as a result of Winsor Part One.
It should also take into account the fact that our proposals actually achieve substantial front-loaded savings up to 2015-16.
Most importantly, it should recognise that Staff Side’s proposed change to the Constables’ pay scale would reduce the current gender pay gap for basic pay for serving officers from 6.6 percent to 3.2 percent.
To achieve that outcome, officers and the public will be shocked to learn that the Official Side was not willing to make the small level of investment necessary over a six year period.
Within the Home Secretary’s letter of direction of 27 March, she indicates that PNB should take into account the impact of the recommendations upon equality and diversity. This appears not to be the case in regard to this recommendation.
Conclusion
Throughout this process, Staff Side has sought to engage constructively, not just in respect of pay, but also in respect of the long-term reform of pensions, on which we can hopefully reach agreement – in direct contrast to the pay negotiations.
We commissioned independent reports which we shared with the Official Side to inform our discussions. The Official Side has provided no evidence to contradict that professional advice which is critical of a number of the recommendations under discussion.
In summary, can I just point out that the security at the Olympics has demonstrated what every police officer knows – that police officers provide the ultimate flexibility, able to fill the void when the private sector fails.
Police officers who in recent weeks have had their rest days cancelled to bail-out the Home Secretary because of the failure of G4S will rightly ask what more is expected of them – particularly if they are also required to provide cover for industrial action by other workers during the Olympics period.
I would remind you that the Home Secretary’s letter of direction also stated that account should be taken of the particular frontline role and nature of the Office of Constable, including the lack of a right to strike. We remain to be convinced that it has.
The last few months have also shown the flexibility of Staff Side. Time and time again, Staff Side has shown its willingness to negotiate.
There is only one message coming out of these negotiations in respect of Winsor Part Two: that the Government and the Official Side does not value the police officers of England and Wales.
This is a truly disappointing day for Staff Side and the police officers we represent, and we will be informing our members accordingly.

http://www.polfed.or...DDB62946C3B.asp

#446 Burnie

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 12:29 PM

Aside from the expected shafting by Official side that has resulted in part 2 going to PAT

Is it me or does that say that there is still a difference in pay between genders beyond that created by different time in service?

Edited by Burnie, 25 July 2012 - 12:31 PM.


#447 rolex-oyster

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 04:38 PM

Unless you are 'frontline' whatever that means you will drop to paypoint 4 on the scale an average loss of £350 per month.
Also the ten year protection has alot of smoke and mirrors about it as they will be looking to cull the older end officers with A19.
The fitness test from 2018 i.e the PSNI will mean many officers especially females and older males will fail this.then having to patrol the streets until 60 years old for the pension.
This is the worst mess imaginable.I have 4 years 10 months to go until my 30 years and I strongly suspect I will be targetted on A19 sometime next year or the year after.

#448 Rocket

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 08:14 AM

Just a heads-up, there will be a written ministerial statement by Theresa May on police pensions at 10:30 this morning.

#449 CmdKeen

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 08:57 AM

Just a heads-up, there will be a written ministerial statement by Theresa May on police pensions at 10:30 this morning.


In the middle of reshuffle day. Not a good sign.

#450 Rocket

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 09:16 AM

Indeed, one takes it that she isn't getting shuffled and that this is the ideal day to bury bad news.





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