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Winsor Report - Part 2

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Deferred - no date as yet for when it will be re-scheduled

And it's Winsor not Windsor people.. tsk!

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Is Part 2 solely about pensions then..?

They should announce it by way of American Horror Movie Narrator:

"Just when you thought it wouldnt get any worse.... It DID!"

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When is it coming out? I though it was supposed to be in Jan?...

If I may butt in as I have read a rather informative news item at work about this.

Winsor Pt 2 was due at the end of January but after the PAT decisions from Pt 1 he has supposedly taken it away to re-work some areas to make them more amenable.

Which probably means 'err they didn't take on section X which saved Y amount of money from pt 1 so I had better change section Z in pt 2 to save that Y amount again'

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Ah, so Part 2 will now just find a way to save the money which isn't being saved in Part 1 after PAT rejected/altered various bits...? So we're all just as shafted as we thought!

Yay!

Edited by Sam Vimes

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I've heard 1st of April as implementation date i.e. start of financial year but I've seen nothing set in stone!

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I've heard 1st of April as implementation date i.e. start of financial year but I've seen nothing set in stone!

Thats when part 1 is implemented not part 2 being released

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I presume everyone is prepared for tomorrow Winsor Part 2, otherwise to be known as the Revenge of Winsor. I must admit to being very worried about the proposals but I guess until they are there in black and white, whats the point of worrying, what will happen will happen.

Edited by Gallifrey

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I presume everyone is prepared for tomorrow Winsor Part 2, otherwise to be known as the Revenge of Winsor. I must admit to being very worried about the proposals but I guess until they are there in black and white, whats the point of worrying, what will happen will happen.

At 1000 pages plus apparently, it's going to be few people that will read it all I imagine! :D

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At 1000 pages plus apparently, it's going to be few people that will read it all I imagine! :D

I'm still curious as to how many witnesses he actually had to provide evidence for this report, has he spoken to a small handful or a large group of officers, are these witnesses identifiable and will they concur with the evidence that has been attributed to them in the report?, I know no one who has actually spoken to him re this report and has he considered that if we should be able to be made redundant, then full industrial rights should come hand in hand with that.

Edited by Gallifrey

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I'm still curious as to how many witnesses he actually had to provide evidence for this report, has he spoken to a small handful or a large group of officers, are these witnesses identifiable and will they concur with the evidence that has been attributed to them in the report?, I know no one who has actually spoken to him re this report and has he considered that if we should be able to be made redundant, then full industrial rights should come hand in hand with that.

It's been shown that some of the 'witnesses' who were quoted didn't even exist:

http://www.policespecials.com/forum/index.php?/topic/123316-police-fury-at-non-existent-pay-witnesses/page__p__2128296

How can we have any faith in it whatsoever when this man blatantly has his own agenda to satisfy?

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An independent review is expected to propose radical changes to how police officers and staff in England and Wales are recruited, assessed and paid.

Lawyer Tom Winsor said his latest report provides a "golden opportunity" for a more efficient police service.

His first review last year resulted in changes to police pay and allowances - estimated to save about £150m a year.

He has said he will tackle the issue of officers who are on "restricted duties" - often due to medical conditions.

Home Secretary Theresa May commissioned Mr Winsor to carry out the review.

It is thought that Mr Winsor will also recommend overhauling the system of police recruitment.

At present, as soon as they have completed their basic training all new officers begin their careers as a constable.

But Mr Winsor has been examining whether people should be able to join the police at higher ranks - such as inspector level.

The Winsor review has also considered if pay should be based more on performance than years served, and whether officers need to undergo regular fitness tests.

Reduced hours

On Tuesday Mr Winsor told the Home Affairs Select Committee he would examine the effect those on restricted duties had on police budgets.

Those who fall into this category include warranted police officers who work reduced hours in back-office roles after injury or ill-health - yet still receive full pay.

He told the committee: "The toughest jobs are the ones where you face the public, you face danger, and you work shifts.

"The skilled jobs are ones that require higher level of skill for example public order, firearms, detectives and neighbourhood policing.

"But there are officers who are in the back office who are doing administrative jobs which you do not require powers of a constable to do."

In January Mrs May approved a pay deal for police following most of the recommendations set out in Mr Winsor's first report.

Her confirmation came after Police Arbitration Tribunal agreed to 10 of 18 recommendations made in the review.

The BBC's Danny Shaw said it was likely likely this review will be just as well received by ministers, though the proposals may take longer to put into effect.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news//uk-17374965

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According to the yellow 'breaking news' ticker at the bottom of sky news on the telly and news.sky.com, every officer has to undergo annual fitness tests with pay cuts for those who "repeatedly fail". Can;t find any links to accompany this post yet, apart from http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17382096 wich doesn't really say much.

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According to the yellow 'breaking news' ticker at the bottom of sky news on the telly and news.sky.com, every officer has to undergo annual fitness tests with pay cuts for those who "repeatedly fail". Can;t find any links to accompany this post yet, apart from http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17382096 wich doesn't really say much.

Go on, I'll bite, how are they going to cut my pay then?

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I think it will be implemented with new starters as part of their contract, I know mine has regular fitness tests every 15 weeks in probation and it is written into the contract

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The most radical shake-up of policing for more than 30 years could result in ending the ban on compulsory redundancies and the introduction of annual fitness tests for officers.The proposals to end the "job for life" culture of the police would also open the way for new recruits with business backgrounds to join the senior ranks without having to start as a constable the beat.

The recommendations form the second stage of a comprehensive review of police pay and conditions by the former rail regulator, Tom Winsor, for the home secretary, Theresa May.

They would, together with the reforms of pay and working condition proposed in the first part of his review, deliver more than £1.9bn in savings over five years on the annual police pay bill.

The package, which is likely to provoke a strong reaction from the police staff associations include:

• Increasing the pension age for all officers to 60. Officers currently retire after 30 years of service from the age of 50.

• A new power for chief constables to introduce compulsory severance across all ranks as part of a resource management programme.

• A new annual fitness test for officers with pay cuts for those who repeatedly fail based on a 15-metre "shuttle run" test.

• Raising minimum educational standards to join the police.

• Higher pay for more demanding police officer and police staff jobs.

• Performance-related pay with pay scales linked to skills and performance rather than length of service.

• An allowance to be paid for working unsocial hours.

• Direct entry for new recruits to be allowed at inspector rank and above to bring in fresh talent from business, military and other fields with at least 80 places a year.

The report suggests reducing the starting salary for a constable from the current £23,500 to £19,000 with £23,000 available for those with appropriate experience such as having been a police support officer.

Winsor said that the next 30 years would not be like the last 30 years: "The existing pay system is unfair and inefficient. It was designed in 1920 and has remained largely unchanged since 1978. This is not about pay cuts but about pay reforms and pay fairness. We want the brightest and best to think of a police career on a par with the professions of the law and medicine."

He said that police officers were well paid, with salaries 10% to 15% higher than some other emergency workers and the armed forces, with 60% higher than average local earnings in regions such as Wales and the north-east.

Winsor said the annual fitness test was needed because only 35% of Metropolitan police officers were of a normal weight. A further 44% were overweight, 19% were technically obese and 1% were morbidly obese.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/mar/15/police-annual-fitness-tests-compulsory-redundancies

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Just seen one of the recommendations

Those officers in roles that do not utilise the skills or powers of a police officer, or who cannot be redeployed into public facing roles, should lose 8% of their basic pay (up to a maximum of £2,922) after one year on restricted duties. After a second year, they should be removed from the force, and offered the opportunity to apply for a police staff job if one is available

That will be a bloody big wake up call and its one I agree with

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Yes so when an experienced detective, who may be an expert in their field with excellent detection rates, fails the shuttle run and gets a pay cut - is Winsor really that ignorant that he thinks that is in the benefit of the police force or (more importantly) the wider public?

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Is there a topic running on the part 2 report? as I've just seen another that is a good one

A new starting rate for constables of £19,000 for those with no qualifications, or £21,000 for those with a policing qualification or service as a PCSO or special constable. This will make the shorter pay scale affordable and reduce the cost of recruiting new constables

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Yes so when an experienced detective, who may be an expert in their field with excellent detection rates, fails the shuttle run and gets a pay cut - is Winsor really that ignorant that he thinks that is in the benefit of the police force or (more importantly) the wider public?

I have to agree. Whilst I think its important for police officers to maintain a reasonable level of fitness we also need to realise that there is much more to the job than simply being able to run.

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I assume that if you are now required to maintain a certain level of fitness you will also be able to claim gym membership fees against tax and save some money as well?

I always thought there used to be a minimum fitness requirement similar to the army, and assumed it was dropped in the same way as the 'force' was changed to a 'service'.

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