138 replies to this topic

[Police Constable 1]

I can tell you despite being a student in Scotland I still have a student loan as do most of my peers, a university education here isn't free as I'm sure many people studying in Scotland can attest to. You neglect to mention the monumental fees levied on foreign students studying here (£15k+ per year) which goes a long way to subsidising other students especially at the bigger institutions known worldwide. Education is a devolved matter and the Scottish Government obviously think it is worth funding, at the expense of numerous other things I must add.



I'm totally against secession but if it does happen we have to be realistic about the future to plan for it. Scotland won't become an economic powerhouse but I don't think Scotland will fall on it's face as some suggest (and indeed seem to want to happen for some reason).

It appears that SNP are the ones who are not being realistic in some aspects

[MacGregor]

It appears that SNP are the ones who are not being realistic in some aspects

In all fairness nobody really is. We get bombarded with rhetoric that Scotland will be great, Scotland will be a third world dump et cetera but reality will lie somewhere in the middle. I'm of the opinion that the rest of the UK will suffer quite a bit if Scotland secedes, not just Scotland. Those with a "good riddance" attitude will no doubt get more than they bargained for.

[Police Constable 1]

In all fairness nobody really is. We get bombarded with rhetoric that Scotland will be great, Scotland will be a third world dump et cetera but reality will lie somewhere in the middle. I'm of the opinion that the rest of the UK will suffer quite a bit if Scotland secedes, not just Scotland. Those with a "good riddance" attitude will no doubt get more than they bargained for.

What do you feel will be the areas the rest of the UK will suffer on?

[MacGregor]

What do you feel will be the areas the rest of the UK will suffer on?

Tourism for a start. Some people come to the UK just to visit Scotland and if Scotland isn't part of the UK (or whatever it may be called at that point) then obviously that money isn't getting into the wider economy of the rest of the UK. The big one is obviously oil revenue. Even if you take the worst case Scotland could possibly get the remainder of the UK would still be losing out on a big chunk of money. I would envisage some sort of revenue sharing agreement for a while as a lot has been invested in the North Sea with an expectation of a return but it would hurt considerably. Small things like that soon add up.

[dredd1981]

I can tell you despite being a student in Scotland I still have a student loan as do most of my peers, a university education here isn't free as I'm sure many people studying in Scotland can attest to. You neglect to mention the monumental fees levied on foreign students studying here (£15k+ per year) which goes a long way to subsidising other students especially at the bigger institutions known worldwide. Education is a devolved matter and the Scottish Government obviously think it is worth funding, at the expense of numerous other things I must add.



I'm totally against secession but if it does happen we have to be realistic about the future to plan for it. Scotland won't become an economic powerhouse but I don't think Scotland will fall on it's face as some suggest (and indeed seem to want to happen for some reason).

It's the attitude of the independence camp that most would find objectionable. Take http://www.oilofscotland.org/ for example.....their case is basically one of "we would be rich is London wasnt taking all the North sea oil money". The only problems with that arguement however are
1- The North sea oil reserves are pretty much 50% gone. How would Scotland finance themselves when the oil dries up?
2- London doesnt take all the money, some of the money goes back into Scotland and some of it goes to pay for things throughout the UK. It is like a Londoner griping that Scotland is taking all the money made by the city of London.....a pretty nonsense arguement.

The line "in the 1970's Scottish North sea oil saves the union + 60 million Brits from bankruptcy" pretty much says it all. Brits.....as if Scotland is an occupied country and the "Brits" are stealing all its resources. As I said before, I am a firm believer in the union however I can understand the mentality of those who would like to see an independent Scotland fall flat on its collective face after reading the, quite frankly, hate filled propaganda on that site!

[Police Constable 1]

Tourism for a start. Some people come to the UK just to visit Scotland and if Scotland isn't part of the UK (or whatever it may be called at that point) then obviously that money isn't getting into the wider economy of the rest of the UK. The big one is obviously oil revenue. Even if you take the worst case Scotland could possibly get the remainder of the UK would still be losing out on a big chunk of money. I would envisage some sort of revenue sharing agreement for a while as a lot has been invested in the North Sea with an expectation of a return but it would hurt considerably. Small things like that soon add up.

You have only mentioned two things,

Tourism, how many people land in England and then travel onto Scotland, not everyone who visits Scotland just goes directly there, also there are just as many places in England/Wales/NI that tourists come to visit.

Oil, There is the fracking that is going on in certain parts of England which is only on a trial basis but would go towards any loss in revenue from the Oil but the Oil is running out......but I cant argue that it isnt a valid point

What other small things can you think of?

[MacGregor]

You have only mentioned two things,

Tourism, how many people land in England and then travel onto Scotland, not everyone who visits Scotland just goes directly there, also there are just as many places in England/Wales/NI that tourists come to visit.

Oil, There is the fracking that is going on in certain parts of England which is only on a trial basis but would go towards any loss in revenue from the Oil but the Oil is running out......but I cant argue that it isnt a valid point

What other small things can you think of?

I wasn't aware I had to meet a quota!

Read what I typed about tourism again. If you think the UK wouldn't lose out from people coming to the UK just to visit Scotland as I stated previously then I don't know what to say to you.

This is actually an area I have a great deal of interest in given what I study but even with oil running out it will still be an important part of the UK economy for the forseeable future. Stating it will run out is just an attempt to sidestep that prospect.

Things like higher education, military capability, tax revenue and the like are all things that the rest of the UK will lose out on. Of course on the other side of the coin Scotland loses out on all of the same things but England wouldn't turn into some sort of utopia over night now the freeloading Scots have been cut loose.

I would also like to point out again that I'm not an SNP voter and that I am totally against secession from the union before people starting painting me to be a Scottish Nationalist.

[Police Constable 1]

I wasn't aware I had to meet a quota!

No need to be flippant, you stated the UK would lose out, I asked you on what areas and you just named two....

Read what I typed about tourism again. If you think the UK wouldn't lose out from people coming to the UK just to visit Scotland as I stated previously then I don't know what to say to you.

And as I said, people will still visit the rest of the UK

This is actually an area I have a great deal of interest in given what I study but even with oil running out it will still be an important part of the UK economy for the forseeable future. Stating it will run out is just an attempt to sidestep that prospect.

How can stating that the oil will run out is sidestepping?

How will Scotland plug the gap left by the oil revenue when it runs out?

Things like higher education, military capability, tax revenue and the like are all things that the rest of the UK will lose out on. Of course on the other side of the coin Scotland loses out on all of the same things but England wouldn't turn into some sort of utopia over night now the freeloading Scots have been cut loose.

Higher education: How will the rest of the UK lose out on that? will the rest of the UK not be allowed to go to Scottish Uni's? that's the only thing I can think of
Military capability: How will that affect the rest of the UK? maybe the loss of a deep sea port but that's about it, Ships will be built in English/Welsh shipyards instead of Scotland thus meaning more jobs being created for the rest of the UK

No one is saying that England will be a utopia, but its not exactly going to change as much as it will for Scotland and remember, England will still be in a union with 3 other Countries, Scotland will be on its own

I would also like to point out again that I'm not an SNP voter and that I am totally against secession from the union before people starting painting me to be a Scottish Nationalist.

That's nice to know, as someone in England (who wants to move to Scotland) I am in favour of the Union for reasons more related to historical purposes, but at least were debating the issue

Edited by Police Constable 1, 02 January 2012 - 07:25 PM.

[MacGregor]

No need to be flippant, you stated the UK would lose out, I asked you on what areas and you just named two....

I'm not going to type out a list of every single thing that might effect the rest of the UK. I picked two to back up a point I was making.

And as I said, people will still visit the rest of the UK

I never suggested otherwise. . .

How can stating that the oil will run out is sidestepping?

How will Scotland plug the gap left by the oil revenue when it runs out?

Because saying independence will fail because oil will run out is unrealistic.

Probably in much the same way as the UK will if the union is still going strong, diversification of the economy. Whether it could make up for for all the lost revenue is another debate entirely and one which I'm not interested in getting into due to my rather limited knowledge of economic matters.

Higher education: How will the rest of the UK lose out on that? will the rest of the UK not be allowed to go to Scottish Uni's? that's the only thing I can think of
Military capability: How will that affect the rest of the UK? maybe the loss of a deep sea port but that's about it, Ships will be built in English/Welsh shipyards instead of Scotland thus meaning more jobs being created for the rest of the UK

No one is saying that England will be a utopia, but its not exactly going to change as much as it will for Scotland and remember, England will still be in a union with 3 other Countries, Scotland will be on its own

I don't mean to be rude but you are thinking quite one dimensionally in terms of education. The UK has some of the best universities in the world and some of them are located in Scotland (Edinburgh FTW ). The UK will lose some of it's best institutions in the event of secession.

The military of the rest of the UK will lose a large recruiting base, some kit and quite a number of bases which will all have to be relocated (which doesn't come cheap). I forgot to mention the rather obvious change in the political landscape at Westminster. Labour does pretty well out of Scotland.

I never suggested the change would be as great, you are once again putting words in my mouth. I think we actually agree here.

[CmdKeen]

I don't mean to be rude but you are thinking quite one dimensionally in terms of education. The UK has some of the best universities in the world and some of them are located in Scotland (Edinburgh FTW ). The UK will lose some of it's best institutions in the event of secession.

You misspelt St Andrews there... But what can be expected from someone attending one of these johnny come lately institutions

As for the Scottish economic future - perhaps they can return to their old ways of periodically invading the North of England. Tremble York, tremble

In seriousness though there is lots of progress being made on Shale Gas recovery in the north of England - which is perfect for Scotland's energy expertise, but such co-operation and investment is much easier in a single nation rather than across a border.

[Lucas North]

The Welsh are not represented on the Union Flag. I think they would be far happier to keep their current flag.

Yeah... hence the reason I took out the Scotish flag and added the... nevermind, it was a joke

[pmtts]

Yeah... hence the reason I took out the Scotish flag and added the... nevermind, it was a joke

I know it was a joke. But Jokes aside, the Welsh would not want to be represented on the Union Flag. They are far happier with their own.

[Andrew999]

The line "in the 1970's Scottish North sea oil saves the union + 60 million Brits from bankruptcy" pretty much says it all. Brits.....as if Scotland is an occupied country and the "Brits" are stealing all its resources. As I said before, I am a firm believer in the union however I can understand the mentality of those who would like to see an independent Scotland fall flat on its collective face after reading the, quite frankly, hate filled propaganda on that site!

You have just filled me with a sense of impending doom, as I'm sure both sides will be preparing 'strong propaganda' in the run-up to a referendum.

I also, am a firm believer in the union although I did vote SNP at the last election. I'm hoping many other SNP voters, like me, would not vote yes in a referendum. I hope people come out and vote, but that they weigh up the arguments carefully and see past the propaganda on both sides. Not sure I trust my fellow countrymen to decide to be honest.

[Nelson]

I wonder how much the UK treasury makes from alcohol duty? Scotland has a fairly large brewing industry, which would no doubt remain with Scotland should it break from the union.

[CmdKeen]

I wonder how much the UK treasury makes from alcohol duty? Scotland has a fairly large brewing industry, which would no doubt remain with Scotland should it break from the union.

Not as much as you'd think - Buckfast is in Devon after all

Scotch sells about £3bn a year. The food and drinks industry in general makes up 5% of Scotland's employment and GDP. So whilst not insignificant it isn't the panacea you might think.

[shinyboots]

I used to be very supportive of keeeping Great Britain, United Kingdom or whatever you want to call it together but now I just want Scotland to have it's referendum and go their own way, if that's what they choose to do. It is pointless devolving yet more powers to Scotland as Alex Salmond wants because effectively that country will be independent anyway!! Apart from the day when the big fat cash train arrives in Edinburgh with all of Scotland's allocation for that financial year! Should independence occur, I personally think it unlikely, then it should mean just that! No Westminster contolled armed forces to protect Scotland or it's territorial waters - they can form their own defence force which, once they've done the sums and realised how much defence really costs, will probably amount to a very small token force like that of the Irish Republic.


I've not nothing against Scotland whatsoever and it is a country I love to visit when I can, but let's sort out the supposed 'West Lothian Question' once and for all.

Edited by shinyboots, 08 January 2012 - 02:13 PM.

[MacGregor]

I'm sorry but there are far better ways to sort the West Lothian question that don't require a referendum on independence. Simply stop Scottish MPs from voting on matters that are not relevant in Scotland. The Labour Party and the Lib Dems might have something to say about it though, Labour wouldn't have got some rather unpopular pieces of legislation passed if it wasn't for their Scottish MPs when they had a majority in the House of Commons.

[Police Constable 1]

Well after watching tonights news, all main parties in London are in favour of the Scots having a referendum soon, and I think they all said they are in favour of keeping the union.

Scottish Lib/Lab want further powers to be devolved but dont want the SNP to take the credit for it, I think Mr Salmond knows he will lose a vote hence him reaffirming that he wants the 2nd question which he is likely to win

[Whopper MacBig]

It should just be a simple question of out or in. Instead, we are being treated to all these shenanigans as the various parties try to skew the arrangements to their best advantage.

It's clear from the Scotland Act that the Scottish Parliament doesn't have the power to decide constitutional matters (which is why Westminster has to get involved). In that context, the SNP included a commitment to hold a referendum on a constitutional issue in their manifesto. They appear to have acted beyond their authority in doing so which generally speaking, is not synonymous with good governance in a democracy. Does make you wonder if there are other lines that they would be prepared to cross in order to achieve their aims?

Having gone to the electorate with a promise that probably shouldn't have beem made, the SNP received 45% of the votes cast. It wasn't an election that was just about a referendum, it was about 101 other things covering the day-to-day running of the country (which they have made a good job of). They received less than 1 million votes in a country of over 5 million people. I suppose that is how our electoral system crumbles, but claims that "the Scottish people have spoken" have to be seen in that context.

The notion that children aged 16-17 should be allowed to vote in the referendum doesn't seem to me to be based on any valid case for extending the right to vote, rather it's because polling amongst this age group shows that there is more support for independence, i.e. as opposed to older voters with a job and a mortgage. Can you be considered not old enough to buy a pint yet old enough to play a full part in constitutional reform?

I'm not sure if the SNP will win the argument. Less sure that the joke that is Scottish Labour and the nonentities that are the LibDems and the Conservatives have the nous to avoid losing it.

[Police Constable 1]

Could the SNP hold a referendum, have it won in their favour and declare independence without London's "authority"?

[Whopper MacBig]

Could the SNP hold a referendum, have it won in their favour and declare independence without London's "authority"?

Not according to the laws of the UK as they currently stand - it would be regarded as an 'advisory' referendum without legal basis.

Having obtained a majority though, they would probably contend that they had the moral right to break away and I guess that would be quite difficult to refute.

[Police Constable 1]

Not according to the laws of the UK as they currently stand - it would be regarded as an 'advisory' referendum without legal basis.

Having obtained a majority though, they would probably contend that they had the moral right to break away and I guess that would be quite difficult to refute.

I dont think I worded my question very well.

Could they just declare independence and just go at it from day 1 without London saying yes to it, or declaring it illegal and trying to go to the Supreme Court etc. What could the rest of the UK do to stop them.

I think Im just being silly but I'm just curious as to if there is anything that could stop them from just doing that

[CmdKeen]

I'm not sure if the SNP will win the argument. Less sure that the joke that is Scottish Labour and the nonentities that are the LibDems and the Conservatives have the nous to avoid losing it.

I agree heartily with all of that. I just hope that this will provide some impetus to the other parties to sort themselves out and challenge the SNP. We don't have time for any of them to have "wilderness years" any more.

It is strange that for the first time I'm wondering, as a very English person with no family in Scotland, whether I would stay post independence. Tis a long way off but England would definitely look more attractive than being paid in Euros, probably taxed higher as the oil runs out, and having general economic policy instructed by a very left wing set of parties.

Could the SNP hold a referendum, have it won in their favour and declare independence without London's "authority"?

Not really. They'd have the moral high ground but it would have massive repercussions to declare independence in such a fashion. You wouldn't have time to have proper negotiations or anything. Salmond should be happy with what he has, he's just being canny and portraying Westminster as "Thatcherite" in "dictating to Scotland". Because Scots don't know any political history from the 80s other than the very biased stories forces down their throats forming some kind of Pavlovian response to the word "Maggie"

I dont think I worded my question very well.

Could they just declare independence and just go at it from day 1 without London saying yes to it, or declaring it illegal and trying to go to the Supreme Court etc. What could the rest of the UK do to stop them.

I think Im just being silly but I'm just curious as to if there is anything that could stop them from just doing that

Westminster wouldn't do anything to stop them, the precedent with that was set with the end of the Irish Free State and Rhodesia's Unilateral Declaration of Independence.

They'd get shafted in terms of national debt allocation etc. They'd be stuck in terms of institutions, currency and a whole host of people stuck in Scotland who are theoretically employed by the UK government.

[Whopper MacBig]

I dont think I worded my question very well.

Could they just declare independence and just go at it from day 1 without London saying yes to it, or declaring it illegal and trying to go to the Supreme Court etc. What could the rest of the UK do to stop them.

I think Im just being silly but I'm just curious as to if there is anything that could stop them from just doing that

I don't see that the UK could be properly dismantled without the co-operation of all parties.

If one party was chomping at the bit having 'won' a referendum then I don't know what that would lead to if the other party refused to play ball.

[Police Constable 1]

Ok how about this question

If Scotland declares independence, could it rejoin the union?