49 replies to this topic

[DeltaFoxtrot]

i saw this on a SKY news bulletin :




Armed Guards For UK Ships Amid Pirate Threat


http://uk.news.yahoo...-105534327.html


TRANSCRIPT:
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Armed guards are to be deployed on British ships to protect them from pirates, Prime Minister David Cameron has announced.

A legal ban on security personnel carrying guns will be relaxed so firms can apply to have them on board when their ships head to dangerous waters.

The Prime Minister said the radical action was needed to combat the increasing threat of Somali pirates which he said had become "a complete stain on the world".

He unveiled the measure after talks at a Commonwealth summit in Australia with leaders of countries in the Horn of Africa over the escalating problem faced in waters off their shores.

Officials said about 200 vessels were expected to be in line to take up the offer, which would only apply for voyages through particular waters in the affected region.

It is expected to be used by commercial firms rather than private sailors - such as hostage victims Paul and Rachel Chandler.

Under the plans, the Home Secretary will be given the power to licence vessels to carry armed security, including automatic weapons, currently prohibited under firearms laws.

Asked if he was comfortable with giving private security operatives the right to "shoot to kill" if necessary, Mr Cameron said: "We have to make choices.

"Frankly, the extent of the hijack and ransom of ships round the Horn of Africa is a complete stain on our world.

"The fact that a bunch of pirates in Somalia are managing to hold to ransom the rest of the world and our trading system is a complete insult and the rest of the world needs to come together with much more vigour."

He also told BBC1's Andrew Marr Show: "I want to help lead this process and, as part of that, we are going to be taking the step of putting armed guards on our ships."

Evidence from other countries with more relaxed regulations over armed guards was that their ships did not get targeted, he said.

"We are going to have to licence that in a proper way, the Home Office has agreed to do that. But I think this is a big step up for our campaign against this piracy."

Other counter-piracy measures being taken include offering support from Treasury officials to Kenya to help them track down pirates' assets.

Mr Cameron also said help could be given to countries such as The Seychelles and Mauritius, who were acting to bring pirates to court and imprison them.

SKY NEWS - 30.10.11

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[Cheetah]

Moved to real world.

[McFlurry]

I thought ships could carry some firearms anyway?

[Samson]

I thought ships could carry some firearms anyway?

Apparantly not. According to the news (BBC) many of them have been carrying firearms for some time, just now they won't be breaking the law by doing so.

[David]

Well unless they can shoot, and even shoot to kill, without the usual do-gooding suspects jumping up and down, isn't the the whole thing rather pointless?

Let's not forget the RN who a couple of months ago seemed powerless and even ended up giving them a hal-al breakfast and sending them on their way or whatever it was?

What caught my interest was was Cameron said this morning in getting Somalian pirates to stop. I might be my usual cynical and suspicious self, but it sounded like a precursor to yet more aid, to me.

[Burnie]

Apparantly not. According to the news (BBC) many of them have been carrying firearms for some time, just now they won't be breaking the law by doing so.

They weren't breaking it, they were exercising a grey area in the legislation.

[Doghandler2009]

Its no suprise really its about time they allowed these ships to have a form of self defence rather than just being easy targets

[DeltaFoxtrot]

I think boats are safe here in UK waters..... and Mediterranean waters..... but if i was on a boat sailing up the somalian coast or the Singapore Straights it would be something totally different entirely !!

[goldfgy]

What ever happened to the old rule that pirates were regarded as enemies of mankind in general and could be taken, tried, and executed by any power that could capture them?
No doubt that old international law was done away with at some time in the past.

[Zatarg]

I know the situation is somewhat different but I couldn't help but thinking, upon reading the headline, "Won't this just mean the Pirates will start arming themselves?"

[Burnsy2023]

What we need, is international action to stop them at their bases in Somalia, rather than just treating the symptoms.

[Steve Collins]

The Russians certainly know how to deal with these scum.

Background:

The Euro Union navy that patrols these waters would not interfere because they feared there could be casualties. So the Russian Navy Commandos freed their compatriots and the tanker.... and then moved the pirates back to their own pirate ship.

The video tape below shows Russian Navy commandos on a Somalian pirate ship shortly after the pirates had captured a Russian oil tanker.

The Russians searched the pirate ship for weapons and explosives... and found plenty! And then they left the ship and exploded it with all remaining pirates hand-cuffed to it.

Yes, the commandos sank the pirate ship along with the pirates and without any court proceedings, lawyers, etc. They used the anti-piracy laws of the 18th and 19th centuries where the captain of the rescuing ship has the right to decide what to do with the pirates. Usually, they were hanged.

http://true-turtle.livejournal.com/85315.html

[DeltaFoxtrot]

I know the situation is somewhat different but I couldn't help but thinking, upon reading the headline, "Won't this just mean the Pirates will start arming themselves?"

erm...............well yes, they are already armed......... eg: Somalian Pirates as per recent kidnapping stories on the News

[Lior]

Well it is nice to hear that the Powers At Be are waking up and realizing that armed self defence actually works. Ships should also have yardarms for pirates who surrender.

An article from two years or so back: http://www.haaretz.c...e-ship-1.274842

Edited by Lior, 01 November 2011 - 10:17 AM.

[dredd1981]

Proper order!

"It's good to hang pirates" Dolph Lundgren in the Expendables

The Russians certainly know how to deal with these scum.

Background:

The Euro Union navy that patrols these waters would not interfere because they feared there could be casualties. So the Russian Navy Commandos freed their compatriots and the tanker.... and then moved the pirates back to their own pirate ship.

The video tape below shows Russian Navy commandos on a Somalian pirate ship shortly after the pirates had captured a Russian oil tanker.

The Russians searched the pirate ship for weapons and explosives... and found plenty! And then they left the ship and exploded it with all remaining pirates hand-cuffed to it.

Yes, the commandos sank the pirate ship along with the pirates and without any court proceedings, lawyers, etc. They used the anti-piracy laws of the 18th and 19th centuries where the captain of the rescuing ship has the right to decide what to do with the pirates. Usually, they were hanged.

http://true-turtle.livejournal.com/85315.html

Edited by dredd1981, 02 November 2011 - 06:03 AM.

[gordon]

The Russians searched the pirate ship for weapons and explosives... and found plenty! And then they left the ship and exploded it with all remaining pirates hand-cuffed to it.

Yes, the commandos sank the pirate ship along with the pirates and without any court proceedings, lawyers, etc. They used the anti-piracy laws of the 18th and 19th centuries where the captain of the rescuing ship has the right to decide what to do with the pirates. Usually, they were hanged.

If this is true this is totally stupid and makes the russians as bad if not worse than the pirates. This isn't made clear in the video and might just be a mistranslation of the commentary, my native russian speaking friend has moved away so I cannot get it checked.

The goal of the international forces in the area is to protect the ships and their crews which means if they are boarding a captured ship the pirates are more likely to fight to the death if they think they will be killed anyways, or try and take the hostages with them as they have nothing to lose. It is one thing to kill the pirates during the storming of the ship or whilst sinking their boats but totally different to kill prisoners without due process.

I think your understanding of the anti-paracy laws is a little more simplistic than they actually are, but I cannot find a god source for them. I think there was a difference between what happens in the heat of battle and what you do with prisoners. The UK used to hang pirates which is actually a fairly quick death and fairly humane, tying them to a ship and then setting fire to it (or exploding it) will mean there is a chance they will burn and then drown which is not a civilised way to kill someone (if there is a civilized way to do it).

Looking at other sites that also quote this video and post no one can confirm that the words in the video say the same as the reported story text does.

[dredd1981]

If this is true this is totally stupid and makes the russians as bad if not worse than the pirates. This isn't made clear in the video and might just be a mistranslation of the commentary, my native russian speaking friend has moved away so I cannot get it checked.

The goal of the international forces in the area is to protect the ships and their crews which means if they are boarding a captured ship the pirates are more likely to fight to the death if they think they will be killed anyways, or try and take the hostages with them as they have nothing to lose. It is one thing to kill the pirates during the storming of the ship or whilst sinking their boats but totally different to kill prisoners without due process.

I think your understanding of the anti-paracy laws is a little more simplistic than they actually are, but I cannot find a god source for them. I think there was a difference between what happens in the heat of battle and what you do with prisoners. The UK used to hang pirates which is actually a fairly quick death and fairly humane, tying them to a ship and then setting fire to it (or exploding it) will mean there is a chance they will burn and then drown which is not a civilised way to kill someone (if there is a civilized way to do it).

Looking at other sites that also quote this video and post no one can confirm that the words in the video say the same as the reported story text does.

These "pirates" aren't the shiver me timbers variety who dance and sing and have sword fights but no one really gets hurt. They are quite literally savages. They will rape, mutilate and murder just to get money. And this isn't just confined to big multinationals, those foolish enough to sail into these waters in their own boats can expect their families to receive body parts in the mail until senior pirate gets his cash! These "people" are vermin and I have no sympathy for what the Russians or anyone else does to them!

[gordon]

These "pirates" aren't the shiver me timbers variety who dance and sing and have sword fights but no one really gets hurt. They are quite literally savages. They will rape, mutilate and murder just to get money. And this isn't just confined to big multinationals, those foolish enough to sail into these waters in their own boats can expect their families to receive body parts in the mail until senior pirate gets his cash! These "people" are vermin and I have no sympathy for what the Russians or anyone else does to them!

I don't know where you got the 'shiver me timbers' bit from my post but I think that what you've posted is a potentially very dangerous view.

You state that they are vermin, imply that they are subhuman, and that you are OK with whatever 'anyone does to them'. I really hope that this is a mis-post and not meant to be taken at face value because it's early and not actually what you wanted to say, I really hope that these are not the views of a serving armed UK police officer. From your post you have just condoned torture, you have just justified the point of view that encourages another Abu Ghraib incident in the future. Look up the Stanford Prison Experiment if you want to see how things get out of hand very quickly.

We need to keep hold of our civilization and humanity when dealing with these people otherwise we become the 'savages' (or at least our armed forces do in our name) and have even more problems in the future. If we refer to the pirates as less than human it's a very short step to also include people related to them in the same way, and from there the label will end up being used further afield too.

[jazz_fan9]

These "pirates" aren't the shiver me timbers variety who dance and sing and have sword fights but no one really gets hurt. They are quite literally savages. They will rape, mutilate and murder just to get money. And this isn't just confined to big multinationals, those foolish enough to sail into these waters in their own boats can expect their families to receive body parts in the mail until senior pirate gets his cash! These "people" are vermin and I have no sympathy for what the Russians or anyone else does to them!

In fairness, all but the passage that I've crossed out was also true of the old style pirates as much as the current breed. It's only through recent favourable press through Pirates of the Carribean, that pirates are seen as fun and friendly.

[Morse]

I don't know where you got the 'shiver me timbers' bit from my post but I think that what you've posted is a potentially very dangerous view.

You state that they are vermin, imply that they are subhuman, and that you are OK with whatever 'anyone does to them'. I really hope that this is a mis-post and not meant to be taken at face value because it's early and not actually what you wanted to say, I really hope that these are not the views of a serving armed UK police officer. From your post you have just condoned torture, you have just justified the point of view that encourages another Abu Ghraib incident in the future. Look up the Stanford Prison Experiment if you want to see how things get out of hand very quickly.

We need to keep hold of our civilization and humanity when dealing with these people otherwise we become the 'savages' (or at least our armed forces do in our name) and have even more problems in the future. If we refer to the pirates as less than human it's a very short step to also include people related to them in the same way, and from there the label will end up being used further afield too.

Just goes to show, don't mess with the Russians. The pirates if that's what you want to call them weren't out to tickle toes with that arsenal. Murder is the only result anticipated by anyone who carries enough arms to equip a small army and that's exactly what these "pirates" are.

This is not inner city Britain where the police slap the cuffs on with one hand (not too hard though) and hand over a pace leaflet with the other.

They are terrorists who live by the sword and die by the sword. A few more will maybe consider their actions before trying the same thing? I wonder if this is the same mob the RN released scot free with a free dinner and a tank of petrol?

Next please!

[Shikari]

About flippin' time! Stop the pirates in the first place by shooting at them with trained, well armed mercs. It'll save so much money, time and grief.

Not entirely sure that blowing them and their ship up was a good thing or not, but it may have sent out a message.

[MrBlonde]

I blogged about this back in May.
Basically a ship falls under the 'laws of the land' they are flagged under when in International waters. The UK dosn't like Assault rifles so even though you can carry them onboad a ship on the high seas, technically a UK flagged ship breaks the law by doing so.
The current way around it is to hire a security company who provide an 'escort' vessel flagged in a country that likes rocket launchers and M4s, or the UK ship takes on board a local licenced Embarked Security team (as you need to do in Malaysian waters for example - they are very much against outside armed security teams in their waters)

Even when this legislation goes through, it'll make very little difference to things in GOA and similar 'pirate-infested waters' - every transit needs to square it away with the countries they pass through during the voyage, which is a major headache and can mean taking a longer route to avoid national waters that are anti armed security, plus different countries have different 'rules of engagement' etc

The UK are already 'world leaders' in managing this sort of thing, the Merchant Maritime Warefare Centre being one of the major players internationally
http://www.goagt.org/

These "pirates" aren't the shiver me timbers variety who dance and sing and have sword fights but no one really gets hurt. They are quite literally savages. They will rape, mutilate and murder just to get money. And this isn't just confined to big multinationals, those foolish enough to sail into these waters in their own boats can expect their families to receive body parts in the mail until senior pirate gets his cash! These "people" are vermin and I have no sympathy for what the Russians or anyone else does to them!

Not true - the vast majority of pirate activity is a very professional business, why do you think they generally target massive ships of valuable and well-insured cargo? - They are in it for the money and know the best way to get the ransom paid out and avoid getting killed or captured in the process is to not harm the crew.

[Burnie]

Not true - the vast majority of pirate activity is a very professional business, why do you think they generally target massive ships of valuable and well-insured cargo? - They are in it for the money and know the best way to get the ransom paid out and avoid getting killed or captured in the process is to not harm the crew.

Indeed - the pirates know to ask for a ransom that is less than the value of the goods and ship as the companies that own the ships would much rather pay the ransom and get the ship and goods back than have to re-source the goods

[CmdKeen]

The pirates are also not really of the hack off body parts variety, or certainly not if you are a westener or employed by a shipping company. The reason ships aren't usually boarded by the patrolling warships*, and that raids haven't been taken into Somalia is that the most important thing is the safety of hostages. Currently hostages, although being kept captive for a long time, are being released alive and unharmed. The pirates know that the moment that changes and they start killing people that ships will be stormed and their bases raided. And the pirates will not come out well from those encounters.

Piracy is a business where others from Gulf states and within Somalia "invest" in a vessel and have shares in any subsequent success. Like any business they are concerned with maximising their profitability and minimising risk. Interestingly local shipping is safe from pirate attacks because ordinary Somalias dislike it when their cargos are captured and their trade interupted. Several pirates have been killed by locals when they returned to shore having captured a local trade vessel.

* Generally the only times they are is when the crew are still safely inside their "bastion", i.e. a secure room, so that boarders can be sent in knowing there are no hostages facing execution.

[Burnie]

The pirates are also not really of the hack off body parts variety, or certainly not if you are a westener or employed by a shipping company. The reason ships aren't usually boarded by the patrolling warships*, and that raids haven't been taken into Somalia is that the most important thing is the safety of hostages. Currently hostages, although being kept captive for a long time, are being released alive and unharmed. The pirates know that the moment that changes and they start killing people that ships will be stormed and their bases raided. And the pirates will not come out well from those encounters.

Piracy is a business where others from Gulf states and within Somalia "invest" in a vessel and have shares in any subsequent success. Like any business they are concerned with maximising their profitability and minimising risk. Interestingly local shipping is safe from pirate attacks because ordinary Somalias dislike it when their cargos are captured and their trade interupted. Several pirates have been killed by locals when they returned to shore having captured a local trade vessel.

* Generally the only times they are is when the crew are still safely inside their "bastion", i.e. a secure room, so that boarders can be sent in knowing there are no hostages facing execution.

Not quite - a lot of the companies have an agreement with the Royal Navy and other navies/defence organisations - once the pirates are on-board the target vessel the defence organistation/navy, it has been agreed, will not undertake boarding action and will allow the company and their insurance to take over