49 replies to this topic

[dredd1981]

I don't know where you got the 'shiver me timbers' bit from my post but I think that what you've posted is a potentially very dangerous view.

You state that they are vermin, imply that they are subhuman, and that you are OK with whatever 'anyone does to them'. I really hope that this is a mis-post and not meant to be taken at face value because it's early and not actually what you wanted to say, I really hope that these are not the views of a serving armed UK police officer. From your post you have just condoned torture, you have just justified the point of view that encourages another Abu Ghraib incident in the future. Look up the Stanford Prison Experiment if you want to see how things get out of hand very quickly.

We need to keep hold of our civilization and humanity when dealing with these people otherwise we become the 'savages' (or at least our armed forces do in our name) and have even more problems in the future. If we refer to the pirates as less than human it's a very short step to also include people related to them in the same way, and from there the label will end up being used further afield too.

Quight right Gordon what was I thinking, they should be given a jolly good telling off and be forced...sorry...asked...to pay compensation at a rate of 50p a month!
Just to be clear, yes I do believe pirates are scum and vermin. Don't forget Somali pirates killed a Brit and kidnapped his wife back in September. In February they murdered 4 American hostages and those are just the first two examples google threw up for me. So I say again, I have no sympathy for this sort of murdering scum. You may be willing to tolerate such behaviour in the name of being civilised but I am not. When you start executing hostages you throw away the rule book and in my opinion (yes Gordon my opinion, hope you're not too worried by it) they deserve whatever they get.
Perhaps if you were a relative of one of the people they butchered you'd have a different opinion!
As for me being a serving police officer, how is that relevant? I have my opinions just like everyone else, but just because I don't shed a tear when a pirate gets a taste of his own medicine this is worrying? When I start hunting pirates when i'm on duty then you can worry but i'll say it again, we're all entitled to our own private opions whatever job we do!

[nik_kershaw]

So who is recruiting the security guards for these ships? I haven't seen anything on the net (not really looked hard). Anyone know much more about it?


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[MrBlonde]

So who is recruiting the security guards for these ships? I haven't seen anything on the net (not really looked hard). Anyone know much more about it?

Go and join closeprotectionworld.com, there's a MarSec forum with lots of discussion about it, posts for job openings etc
Lots of the big companies now have a MarSec arm and there are plenty of maritime specialists like Drum Cussac, MAST, GoAGT who have been protecting ships for many years, it's just never really been newsworthy before now.

No offence, if you don't already know all this you aren't qualified to do the work, so I guess you're just curious?

A few links for you
http://www.drum-cuss...p?division_id=5
http://www.mast-commercial.com/
http://www.goagt.org/

[jazz_fan9]

They also tend to recruit pretty direct from Royal Marines.

[MrBlonde]

They also tend to recruit pretty direct from Royal Marines.

Indeed.

There's no standard previous job description for this line of work, but you generally won't even get an interview with most companies unless you are/hold:
ex Royal Navy / Marine / SBS with at least 8 years service
STCW 95 (at least the basic 4 modules)
SSO
ENG 1 medical

You may also find they want SIA CP licence (for their insurance purposes, proves you are background checked and have a decent level of 'protective security' training, even if it's not strictly relevant); they may also specify an MCA Seamans Discharge Book to make entering and leaving port easier (and prove you know something about boats, rather than just being a 'gun for hire')
There are also so many guys with embarked security team experience, that you generally need experience too (getting like PSD work in Iraq) because why would a company employ a new guy over someone who has already proven themselves on transits?

Edited by MrBlonde, 30 November 2011 - 06:49 PM.

[MrBlonde]

http://www.navalguards.com/ have an opening at the moment, 4 month contract @ $3.5k per month (which is pretty pants)

• Military background, preferably Royal Navy, Royal Marines, Special Forces but not exclusively if you have the following qualifications we would still be interested in you.
• Qualified for STCW95 (all 4 parts)
• SSO or Anti piracy awareness (course or similar)
• Clean CRB Check
• Yellow fever vaccination and certificates
• Evidence of weapons training or discharge certs or similar
• Preferable - You will need to be additionally vaccinated against: Malaria, Hepatitis A and B, Typhoid, Rabies, Measles mumps, Rubella (MMR), Tetanus-Diphtheria.

Conditions and package

• Time on land will be dependant on transit and cannot be guaranteed.(although some land time is certainly envisaged). We have our own Villas in Djibouti and Sri Lanka.

• You need to provide Combat boots and trousers
• You need to make your own way to the airport you will fly from (UK is normally Heathrow, local flights if comparable in price can be arranged)

• We cover all costs once you arrive at departing airport
• We cover your return flight
• Accommodation/food is paid for by us
• In the event of illness we will arrange medical care (not sea sickness!) and repatriation if required.
• You are insured for public liability.

[CmdKeen]

$3.5k per month? That's barely more than you'd get doing it in the forces, and less than senior rates / officers on ops. And at least then you have access to proper weaponry* and they pay for your combat boots...



* Unless you're floating off Libya with only 4 Sea Wolves on board

Edit to add: If you factor in the pension regular members of the forces get (given we're talking about those elsewhere...) it is probably *worse* than anyone doing this job is getting

Edited by CmdKeen, 01 December 2011 - 01:53 PM.

[Myky]

Quight right Gordon what was I thinking, they should be given a jolly good telling off and be forced...sorry...asked...to pay compensation at a rate of 50p a month!
Just to be clear, yes I do believe pirates are scum and vermin. Don't forget Somali pirates killed a Brit and kidnapped his wife back in September. In February they murdered 4 American hostages and those are just the first two examples google threw up for me. So I say again, I have no sympathy for this sort of murdering scum. You may be willing to tolerate such behaviour in the name of being civilised but I am not. When you start executing hostages you throw away the rule book and in my opinion (yes Gordon my opinion, hope you're not too worried by it) they deserve whatever they get.
Perhaps if you were a relative of one of the people they butchered you'd have a different opinion!
As for me being a serving police officer, how is that relevant? I have my opinions just like everyone else, but just because I don't shed a tear when a pirate gets a taste of his own medicine this is worrying? When I start hunting pirates when i'm on duty then you can worry but i'll say it again, we're all entitled to our own private opions whatever job we do!

i know i am going to lose some rep for this but what the hell...

so we should disregard the Geneva convention with regard to treatment of enemy combatants ? The fact is we should practice what we preach. No we don't need to have sympathy but at the same time we should not condone behaviour like this. It's murder... cold blooded murder.

The kind of murder that you as a police officer have a sworn duty to condemn and ensure does not happen. Yes you're allowed a private personal different opinion whatever job we do, however this is a public forum. If police officers start stating publicly stating that they condone murder then how can they possibly uphold the law on it?

I am not trying to suggest your opinion is wrong or condone murder. But as a police officer suggesting (however slightly/ subtle) that it was a good thing the Russians appeared to murder 10s of men was a good thing. it looks bad. police officers are in the public eye. Police officers are the most visible part of law and order. The actions and thoughts of one police officer can affect the reputation of the entire police force.

Journalists do troll this site looking for and inciting opinions of police officers. many of our posts have appeared on other sites perhaps out of context with what we actually mean saying we condone things like this. lets not make it easy for them eh?

Edited by Myky The Elf, 01 December 2011 - 01:55 PM.

[CmdKeen]

i know i am going to lose some rep for this but what the hell...

so we should disregard the Geneva convention with regard to treatment of enemy combatants ? The fact is we should practice what we preach. No we don't need to have sympathy but at the same time we should not condone behaviour like this. It's murder... cold blooded murder.

The kind of murder that you as a police officer have a sworn duty to condemn and ensure does not happen. Yes you're allowed a private personal different opinion whatever job we do, however this is a public forum. If police officers start stating publicly stating that they condone murder then how can they possibly uphold the law on it?

I am not trying to suggest your opinion is wrong. But as a police officer suggesting that it was a good thing the Russians appeared to murder 10s of men was a good thing. it looks bad. police officers are in the public eye. Police officers are the most visible part of law and order. The actions and thoughts of one police officer can affect the reputation of the entire police force.

Journalists do troll this site looking for and inciting opinions of police officers. many of our posts have appeared on other sites perhaps out of context with what we actually mean saying we condone things like this. lets not make it easy for them eh?

What makes them subject to the Geneva conventions? They aren't "enemy combatants" as they aren't fighting for a state or cause, they are criminals. And ironically the term "enemy combatants" is used by the USA to do and end run around the Geneva Conventions because they specifically say that certain types of combatant are excluded from its protections.

Singapore has the death penalty for any pirates it captures. And the customary international law regarding piracy is that anyone who captures a pirate can try them under their laws - because it is pretty much the only crime that every country in the world has agreed is a bad thing.

The problem arises in that the British application of justice says any British agent of the state operating anywhere in the world is subject to the same regulations as if acting in the UK. So arresting a pirate gives them the same rights as if they were arrested bobbing up and down on the Thames.

The Somalis themselves stop piracy against their own vessels, the community comes together and massaces the pirates.

Edit to add: PS. UK police officers do not have a "sworn duty to condem or prevent" what the Russians get up to on the high seas. Unless you're in Team GB World Police

Edited by CmdKeen, 01 December 2011 - 02:02 PM.

[Myky]

What makes them subject to the Geneva conventions? They aren't "enemy combatants" as they aren't fighting for a state or cause, they are criminals. And ironically the term "enemy combatants" is used by the USA to do and end run around the Geneva Conventions because they specifically say that certain types of combatant are excluded from its protections.

Singapore has the death penalty for any pirates it captures. And the customary international law regarding piracy is that anyone who captures a pirate can try them under their laws - because it is pretty much the only crime that every country in the world has agreed is a bad thing.

The problem arises in that the British application of justice says any British agent of the state operating anywhere in the world is subject to the same regulations as if acting in the UK. So arresting a pirate gives them the same rights as if they were arrested bobbing up and down on the Thames.

The Somalis themselves stop piracy against their own vessels, the community comes together and massaces the pirates.

Edit to add: PS. UK police officers do not have a "sworn duty to condem or prevent" what the Russians get up to on the high seas. Unless you're in Team GB World Police

the sworn duty was me mixing two sentences trying to put my point across.

whilst they dont have a sworn duty to police what the russians get up to they do need to have a moral integrity. so if police officers condone or appear to condone what is against the law in the country they police then they appear to lose that moral integrity.

for example. russians kill criminals floating in international waters. UK police officer opinion: "great idea!" send out a message kill them all!" in the eyes of the public can translate to... officer thinks we should kill criminals.

thats my point. yes as you can have an opinion or a lack of sympathy etc etc but ensure it stays private. posting it on a public forum is icky.

you also mention trying pirates under their laws. did not know that the Russians didn't have a court system or a lack of a trial etc. what ever category they fall under they appear to have killed defenceless bound men without any form of mercy or trial.

you also mention the problem with the British justice system when dealing with pirates that have been captured is that they are treated with the same rights as if they had been caught bobbing on the thames. Well i should hope so... how else did you expect them to be treated? any less? we can not preach for better human rights and ignore them when it comes to captured pirates/ those without morals.

we should be leading by example. we know the problem of piracy won't be solved by the systematic murder of those lured in ultimately by money and gangs. otherwise we may as well say... lets murder those who rioted in august. because the pirates are pirates for exactly the same reasons the looters were looters in august.

Money + material items

Edited by Myky The Elf, 01 December 2011 - 02:50 PM.

[MrBlonde]

$3.5k per month? That's barely more than you'd get doing it in the forces, and less than senior rates / officers on ops. And at least then you have access to proper weaponry* and they pay for your combat boots...

As I said, pants.
However those with a proven record are already on the books, these will be "YTS" roles advertised to get people on board who aren't known or proven without costing them a forune if no good, plus the cargo will be fairly ordinary/low value.
I expect anyone they keep for the next round of transits would move up the payscale - the established guys are on around $8.5k to $10k per month depending on role, company and what they're protecting.

[dredd1981]

the sworn duty was me mixing two sentences trying to put my point across.

whilst they dont have a sworn duty to police what the russians get up to they do need to have a moral integrity. so if police officers condone or appear to condone what is against the law in the country they police then they appear to lose that moral integrity.

for example. russians kill criminals floating in international waters. UK police officer opinion: "great idea!" send out a message kill them all!" in the eyes of the public can translate to... officer thinks we should kill criminals.

thats my point. yes as you can have an opinion or a lack of sympathy etc etc but ensure it stays private. posting it on a public forum is icky.

you also mention trying pirates under their laws. did not know that the Russians didn't have a court system or a lack of a trial etc. what ever category they fall under they appear to have killed defenceless bound men without any form of mercy or trial.

you also mention the problem with the British justice system when dealing with pirates that have been captured is that they are treated with the same rights as if they had been caught bobbing on the thames. Well i should hope so... how else did you expect them to be treated? any less? we can not preach for better human rights and ignore them when it comes to captured pirates/ those without morals.

we should be leading by example. we know the problem of piracy won't be solved by the systematic murder of those lured in ultimately by money and gangs. otherwise we may as well say... lets murder those who rioted in august. because the pirates are pirates for exactly the same reasons the looters were looters in august.

Money + material items

I seem to remember the last time a British warship captured pirates they gave them a hearty breakfast, nicotine patches and sent them on their way, seems there was no stomach for putting them on trial here!
http://www.dailymail...-sets-free.html

As I said in my previous post, I have no sympathy for people who use kidnap and murder as currency. You may think it is murder for the Russians to allegedly kill a number of pirates, and maybe it is murder. But as I said, these people show no regard for their victims, the case I mentioned before of pirates kidnapping a British tourist and murdering her husband this year should show you what kind of people these pirates are. As I said, it may be murder, i'm not condoning it, but on the same token i have as much sympathy for them as they have for their victims!
I completely understand where you're coming from visa vie condoning murder, I know only too well, heck up until a few years ago sinn fein were openly condoning the murder of police officers/soldiers. The difference is these people are actively engaged in criminal acts that result in people having various parts of their bodies cut off. The Royal Navy feed them and let them go, the russians (allegedly) kill them. Given those two options, the option of having armed pirates prowl the seas and potentially kill more people or having said pirates turned from living pirates into dead pirates....I know which I, and probably a lot of other people, would find the more suitable option.

I should probably add a new disclaimer....I do not support, condone or call for the killing of pirates.......just as I don't support letting them go on their merry way!

edited for spelling

Edited by dredd1981, 02 December 2011 - 11:45 AM.

[MrBlonde]

I seem to remember the last time a British warship captured pirates they gave them a hearty breakfast, nicotine patches and sent them on their way, seems there was no stomach for putting them on trial here!
http://www.dailymail...-sets-free.html

You've 3 options;
Chase them away and move the 'problem' off your patch - and call your presence there a success as piracy in your AO drastically reduces
Capture them, then comply with 'civilised' laws, gather evidence, treat them well etc
Kill them

In the above article, everyone knew they were pirates, but as with the UK Police, unless you can gather enough conclusive evidence for a prosecution, you have to let them go.

RN have just captured another Pirate group, this time they had sniffer dogs on board and were able to detect guns and explosives amongst other things, and the pirates have been shipped to the Seychelles for trial.

[CmdKeen]

You've 3 options;
Chase them away and move the 'problem' off your patch - and call your presence there a success as piracy in your AO drastically reduces
Capture them, then comply with 'civilised' laws, gather evidence, treat them well etc
Kill them

In the above article, everyone knew they were pirates, but as with the UK Police, unless you can gather enough conclusive evidence for a prosecution, you have to let them go.

RN have just captured another Pirate group, this time they had sniffer dogs on board and were able to detect guns and explosives amongst other things, and the pirates have been shipped to the Seychelles for trial.

The "where to try them" question of course being a really key one for the UK. Given that if acquitted, or post incarceration, we can't send them back to Somalia due to their human rights. Despite of course the fact that they were perfectly happy to live in Somalia before being caught - they had a boat after all. So it turns into a bit of a heads I win, tails you lose, situation for them if captured by the Brits.

[pmtts]

Armed guards are to be deployed on British ships to protect them from pirates, Prime Minister David Cameron has announced.

Are there any British vessels left

The number of UK-flagged vessels are disappearing at an alarming level each year. Most have defected to flags of convenience. A typical example only months ago is that great British Cruise company Cunard. Gone is " Southampton " from the stern of her vessels.

Edited by pmtts, 06 December 2011 - 11:33 AM.

[nik_kershaw]

I was just curious about it all. I left the Army to be at home more and I'm happy doing that, although it is in Australia, another shrimp on the barbie anyone?


Sent from my iPhone Living the dream

[dredd1981]

http://www.dailymail...li-pirates.html

Good article about the ex servicemen guarding cargo ships

[Stevie6544]

myky, I respect that you have been able to retain your moral integrity. But please, don't taint it with moral outrage.
Quote: "thats my point. yes as you can have an opinion or a lack of sympathy etc etc but ensure it stays private. posting it on a public forum is icky."

People will do what is right in their judgement and in the circumstances of a given situation. To make an opinion does not infer intent. PSD may read these words but it does not trigger an automatic 'release of the hounds'. They have enough real crime to deal with.

But consider.....when your Algerian-registered cruise ship is being boarded by Somalian pirates, seeing (or hearing it, from your hiding place) them 'dealt with' by ex-Spetnaz with automatic weapons might prove a valid alternative to kidnap, two years as a hostage and the attendant bad behaviour.
In that scenario it could be possible to live with the experience and retain one's moral integrity.

[pmtts]

It looks like some anti-piracy guards have fallen fowl already.

Bulk carrier Genco Provence was reportedly detained by Indian authorities in Gujarat, Morbi, on Dec 5 for carrying on board four self-loading rifles (SLRs) and live cartridges, though the arms were declared in advance. The crew is 21 Ukrainians and 2 Irish guards, arms are on board for protection against pirates, but Indian authorities found it all unsatisfactory and demand papers which will prove that either guards or vessel, or both, are authorized to carry weapons.

[dredd1981]

http://www.dailymail...-2m-ransom.html


Anyone still have sympathy for these vermin?

[pmtts]

They also tend to recruit pretty direct from Royal Marines.

Like Neputne Maritime Security. Headed by former RM W01.

Click Here!

[MrBlonde]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...d-asia-17354830

[jazz_fan9]

Like Neputne Maritime Security. Headed by former RM W01.

Click Here!

Note an address in Poole.

[tomspen]

We're only really beginning to see the start of trouble with these private military groups. They're starting to grow quite rapidly in the Maritime industry.

There are problems both ways. These vessels are worth hundreds of millions of dollars and their cargo is just as valuable. Many of them are also vital to world trade. If they get hijacked it will not only cost the owners/charterers millions but could have a significant impact on the prices of oil and other commodities. The owners/charterers also face the problem of rising fuel costs. One of the most effective ways of avoiding pirates is to increase speed, but on the larger ships especially this will increase the fuel consumption by 20/30/40 tonnes per day. With fuel at approx $800 per tonne it will quickly rack up costs. So it is going to be cheaper to hire guards at a fixed rate for the passage/journey.

However the big problems this will cause is over liability. The sector lacks and real governance or legislation which leaves the owners/charterers exposed to legal implications. It also worries the P&I clubs who insure these vessels and leaves the whole industry open to legal disputes.

The shipping world really needs strong, clear guidance from the IMO and other bodies to solve this problem. At the moment there is not being enough done to tackle global piracy. And unfortunately it will leave many sailors, owners and charterers in a very precarious position, we can see this from the Italian guards arrested in Mumbai only a month ago.

[MrBlonde]

Tom, this particular thread is about British ships taking on embarked security, there are no problems with our "private military groups" - the issue surrounds MARSEC as a whole and big business/government.

We have some of the best teams and companies in the world, but they cost money and there's a two-tiered approach to security. British ships with British teams don't get hit (I think there's been 2 or 3 since 2005 and they didn't have a British team on board at the time anyway) however other country ships doing transits on the cheap with no security, or security made up from a bunch of Philippinos etc get hit all the time.

Ships aren't using extra fuel 'going faster' as a tanker running flat out can't manage even half the speed of a Skiff, but they do stay further out to sea and take longer routes, which may also involve more speed to make up some time as the longer voyage means a longer and higher charter cost for the operator.

The pirates rely on the fact not everyone can afford decent teams or longer transit routes and have to 'risk it', plus the likes of Lloyds have massivly increased insurance because they know some ships WILL get hit. GOA is now classed as a War Zone, and the War Risk Premium for a big ship has risen from $500 to $150,000 per transit so while the initial problem is the pirates, there's plenty of other groups further up the food chain seeing the opportunity to make a lot of money, just like happened in Iraq.

Providing clear guidance for embarked security isn't really the point, the bigger problem is removing the need for piracy because they have no other way to feed their family in their dreadful little country, while also doing something about big business profits driving shipping operators to cut costs and take risks.

Edited by MrBlonde, 18 March 2012 - 09:07 AM.