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Smelling drugs in the street


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#1 OFFLINE   95%boredom5%terror

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 07:38 PM

You are walking down a service road at the back of homes when you smell and see over a seven foot rear garden wall Cannabis being smoked. There is a garden gate. What could you do?

I've thought it through and the only thing can see is that if you knock the gate and are invited in :) you can report them/caution them.

#2 OFFLINE   Random~name

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 07:45 PM

S23 MODA would allow you to search them, there is no mention of public place in the wording.

#3 OFFLINE   Killicksparker

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 07:45 PM

Submit the intel - there may be bigger fish to fry :)

#4 OFFLINE   MC1

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 08:13 PM

Dislaimer: I would not do what I am about to suggest!

1. Jump the fence and go into the garden to arrest the chap. (Sec. 17)
2. Arrest the chap. (Sec. 17)
3. Search him for anymore (Sec. 32)
4. Search negative, de-arrest and give him a caution/PND.

That could be done in theory I suppose. Wouldn't catch me doing it though.

#5 OFFLINE   Sceptre

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 09:27 PM

You are walking down a service road at the back of homes when you smell and see over a seven foot rear garden wall Cannabis being smoked. There is a garden gate. What could you do?


Quit the police and earn ten times as much playing professional basketball.

Submit intelligence; you don't know who's in there or what you'll find and there's a good reason the TSG wear full PSU kit for drugs warrants. Let the experts decide how best to deal with it.

#6 OFFLINE   95%boredom5%terror

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 05:07 PM

MC1

I don't believe sec 17 gives you a power of entry - its just for indictable offences (plus 6 summery and drink drive)

#7 OFFLINE   Rocket

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 05:18 PM

Breath out quickly as soon as the narbis registered and then hold my breath until I was out of range and in clean air.

Then, follow the excellent advice in post #3 from KP.

I am not over 7 foot tall to see over the wall I must add, so my nose would have to play it's part in this scenario.

#8 OFFLINE   MC1

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 06:11 PM

MC1

I don't believe sec 17 gives you a power of entry - its just for indictable offences (plus 6 summery and drink drive)


Sec. 17 gives you power of entry to arrest for an indictable offence. Possession of cannabis is indictable, so the power of entry is there.

#9 OFFLINE   SpecialCCC

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 06:16 PM

I would probably get one of the mounted branch down to give me piggy back.

In all seriousness I would probably note it down somewhere and add it to one of the intelligence systems.

#10 OFFLINE   rob90

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 09:22 PM

You are walking down a service road at the back of homes when you smell and see over a seven foot rear garden wall Cannabis being smoked. There is a garden gate. What could you do?

I've thought it through and the only thing can see is that if you knock the gate and are invited in :whistle: you can report them/caution them.


As killicksparker says, 5x5x5 all the way, you don't know that the address isn't already known and being 'dealt with'. Do you want to be the special who stumbles in and ruins the big operation... No...? Didn't think so.

#11 OFFLINE   JamieK

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 12:48 PM

my 2 cents:

Rear gardens don't count as public places, so you can't jump the wall and arrest / search unless you are on the premises lawfully.

S17 also doesn't count in this scenario. (as i understand it, drugs are outside S17)

We had an example recently on the PLC where it was categorically stated that you cannot enter under S17 even if you can see people doing lines of coke off the dining table.

Get a warrant - s8 i think.

#12 OFFLINE   Rorschach

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 01:00 PM

I can appreciate just charging in will quite often be inappropriate, but as MC1 says, posession is an indictable offence so why wouldn't s17 apply?

#13 OFFLINE   SkinSte

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 01:07 PM

Where is it stated that drugs are outside the scope of PACE?

#14 OFFLINE   rob90

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 01:29 PM

my 2 cents:

Rear gardens don't count as public places, so you can't jump the wall and arrest / search unless you are on the premises lawfully.

S17 also doesn't count in this scenario. (as i understand it, drugs are outside S17)

We had an example recently on the PLC where it was categorically stated that you cannot enter under S17 even if you can see people doing lines of coke off the dining table.

Get a warrant - s8 i think.



s.17(1)b PACE Act 1984 says:

(1)
Subject to the following provisions of this section, and without prejudice to any other enactment, a constable may enter and search any premises for the purpose— ...
(b) of arresting a person for an [F1indictable] offence;


It does not exclude implicitly or explicitly anything to do with drugs, therefore if you are intending to go in and lift the people for possession of a controlled substance, you are at your leisure to make entry under s.17 PACE.

The correct warrant in this case would arguably s.23(2) Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, which specifically grants JPs the power to issue warrants in relation to drugs. Whether it would be proportionate to put the door in under s.17 for a simple possession arrest, and whether or not it would be the correct way to deal with it in terms of force policy are two entirely separate issues from whether or not it would be lawful. I would venture to say that your PLC tutor was wrong, or that you have misunderstood them.

p.s. S.8 PACE Act 1984 does concern warrants in relation to evidence of indictable offences.

But realistically, 5x5 it, or if more urgent make contact with your local CID/drugs team/AIU/whoever deals with such things...

#15 OFFLINE   ninetyone

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 03:47 PM

my 2 cents:

Rear gardens don't count as public places, so you can't jump the wall and arrest / search unless you are on the premises lawfully.

S17 also doesn't count in this scenario. (as i understand it, drugs are outside S17)

We had an example recently on the PLC where it was categorically stated that you cannot enter under S17 even if you can see people doing lines of coke off the dining table.

Get a warrant - s8 i think.

As others have said - this is not a statement of the law, but may be a statement of force policy. What they're probably trying to say is that it is almost certainly going to be more productive to submit it as intelligence, because the drugs aren't likely to go away!

#16 OFFLINE   Random~name

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 04:31 PM

my 2 cents:

Rear gardens don't count as public places, so you can't jump the wall and arrest / search unless you are on the premises lawfully.

S17 also doesn't count in this scenario. (as i understand it, drugs are outside S17)

We had an example recently on the PLC where it was categorically stated that you cannot enter under S17 even if you can see people doing lines of coke off the dining table.

Get a warrant - s8 i think.


S23 MODA allows you to search in a public place or private place ( this includes a garden or inside an address, it doesn't give you a power of entry to an address and reasonable grounds to suspect obviously apply )

S8 warrant ? Why when a drugs warrant would be more appropriate based on the offence.

#17 OFFLINE   MC1

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 02:27 AM

.
Get a warrant - s8 i think.

Dont worry about what little section each power comes from. Leave the brain space for procedure and learning what to do in what situation.

#18 OFFLINE   JamieK

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 01:20 PM

I argued the point with S17 not covering drugs, but the tutor seemed adamant. We had it drilled into us that you cannot enter to arrest under S17 for drugs, despite it being indictable. I'm not about to bad mouth a tutor, but frankly, i wouldn't dare up the argument again with this particular tutor.

It may well be policy as opposed to law. In reality, in the given scenario, give a call to a skipper. i was just passing on info learned on the PLC (and as those of us on the course know, Portsmouth Uni are infallible - probably due to all that policing they do).

#19 OFFLINE   SkinSte

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 01:37 PM

Maybe we had the same tutor as we were told the same. It's not bad mouthing but fact to say that they were incorrect in this as well as other topics.

#20 OFFLINE   Bobby-Bali

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 01:52 PM

to arrest for an indictable offence, you need to know the identity of the person you are looking to arrest though, so for drugs, you couldnt gaurantee that the person was there just because you could smell drugs...so no s17.

#21 OFFLINE   SkinSte

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 02:12 PM

The original scenario says that you look over the fence and see someone smoking it, ergo you have a suspect.

#22 OFFLINE   Rorschach

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 03:08 PM

Plus "even if you can see people doing lines of coke off the dining table."

#23 OFFLINE   ninetyone

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 07:01 PM

to arrest for an indictable offence, you need to know the identity of the person you are looking to arrest though, so for drugs, you couldnt gaurantee that the person was there just because you could smell drugs...so no s17.

Can you quote the bit of the law that says that?

#24 OFFLINE   Bobby-Bali

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 07:36 PM

Section 17 (2)a pace...if he reasonably believe the person whom he is seeking is on the premises...therefore you must be seeking a specific person to arrest, the smell of cannibis is not enough to go in on a whim, hoping there will be someone in there with the drugs

Ah I didn't see there were people smoking it, I assumed we were talking about simple smell...

Edited by Bobby-Bali, 20 October 2011 - 07:40 PM.


#25 OFFLINE   ninetyone

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 11:16 PM

You don't need to know the identity of the person, but you do need to believe that there is a person to arrest. In this instance, it states that you both smell and see cannabis being smoked. Even if you did just smell it being smoked, that would be enough - it's not smoking itself! However, if you just smelt "cannabis" generally, then that probably would not be enough, so I see what you were getting at.