293 replies to this topic

[Moxnil]

I know there has been a couple of topics on this, but they are from quite a while ago and I'm interested in hearing what specials (and regulars) from the police think about these non-noxious defence sprays, and if you've ever come across them on a search. I'm a MOP, and my EDC (Every day carry) includes a canister of Farb Gel spray. It falls outside the scope of the firearms legislation. It is not classed as an offensive weapon as it is not made, adapted or intended to cause injury. As a tactical option, it's not that great, but it's the best the law allows for MOP's.

In the other threads, there was an opinion that it shouldn't be carried because someone might abuse it. I think that raises a valid concern, because there is always a risk that a MOP will abuse their equipment. However the same risk exists that a police officer will abuse their PPE, but I don't think either should be prevented from carrying. I think the law is reasonable as it is, because it allows someone mis-using the item - whether it is a police officer beating up an enemy with his asp, or a drunken MOP spray painting a stranger - to face legal consequences. All things considered, I don't want it to degenerate into something like "All officers are prevented from carrying batons in case someone mis-uses it".

The canister could look like it's a canister of the more powerful sprays, especially when carried in a holster, so I could understand an officer requesting to have a closer look at it to check it really is legal, and isn't PAVA/Captor.

Edited by Moxnil, 27 September 2011 - 02:04 PM.

[brianb]

what exactly does it do

i can see it being classed as an offence weapon if you actually use it, subject to stat defence

[Sceptre]

Just why? If you really feel that threatened then learn places to avoid, take up MMA, learn to run really quickly or even carry a can of deodorant instead, it'll be a lot more use than some red paint.

If I came across anyone who started talking about their "EDC" and "tactical options" and carrying cans of things in holsters my eyebrows would definitely be on the way up. Out of interest what other odds and ends do you walk about carrying?

[AnthonyB]

One of the UK manufacturers publish the below legal guide:
http://www.stoppared...Information.pdf

Their product has been around a long time and they claim several instances of usage where the police have been involved and took no action.

Their thinking is if used as they intend it's in the same vein as being sprayed with dye & Smartwater from a Cash in Transit box or incapacitated by triggering a Smoke Cloak system - both of which are legal.

I would therefore treat each encounter with it (both carrying & usage) on it's merits and act taking in all the evidence & circumstances at the time.

My only bug bear with StoppaRed is that to save money they use adhesive paper labels instead of screenprinting, so after a while cans labels can wear away meaning it then looks virtually no different to PAVA/CS - in which case I would treat as a prohibited item & let the labs test it.

[callsign-kid]

I wouldn't bother with it honestly. I don't think its actually illegal to have, using it could be a bit of a headache though. Especially if you were to use it legitimately only to have the assailant turn round and accuse you of using it to try and rob them. That would a) explain physical injury to you and b) you end up arrested on suspicion of robbery.In all honesty the good old 2d maglite offers um, plenty of illumination.I also have a feeling that the stuff would only serve to aggravate a determined assailant.

Edited by callsign-kid, 27 September 2011 - 02:30 PM.

[MerseyLLB]

In fairness, they are much akin to the rape alarm canisters. I can't see the harm in it. If it can save a MOP from coming to harm and help identify a suspect why would anybody have a problem. The reason you might carry it in an accesible place is for the same reason that a constable keeps his CS and baton on his belt and not in the car.

Every person should have a right to defend themselves, and use of defensive tools IMO is fine. The culture in this country appears to be now 'Don't defend yourself, come to harm and call the police to report the crime'.

Carrying a can of deodorant might actually cause serious damage to an attackers eyes and could cause respiratory trouble, and so if you were carrying it for that purpose then it would be an offweap.

[BristolSam]

How can you know whether its actually filled with something different like CS/PAVA etc rather than the dye spray? Without actually spraying it yourself... if some of the lovely people we meet on the streets pulled out a can of this stuff, I'd be seriously considering what's actually in the canister and if it's just been labelled different in case they get caught.

[Radman]

In my own experience I dont see a problem in say a Security Guard carrying something like this - none at all.

Lets face it (realistically here) a Security Guards job isnt 'non confrontational' is it? I would say this would also fall under their remit of 'observe and report' as the gel would stain and could be linked backed to an offender should they escape.

I firmly believe that as a society we need to review how a person can and cant defend themselves because at the minute its all in the criminals favour - i've arrived on scene with Security Staff lawfully detaining someone only for the detainee to scream

"I'm going to do you for assault! OFFICA! OFFICA! This Security man is assaultin' me, abusin mi human rites!"

The first words in the criminal vocabulary seems to be "Human Rights" and is used at every possible oppotunity - very annoying.

Edited by Radman, 27 September 2011 - 02:52 PM.

[Sceptre]

Carrying a can of deodorant might actually cause serious damage to an attackers eyes and could cause respiratory trouble, and so if you were carrying it for that purpose then it would be an offweap.

Did I say you were carrying it to spray people with? I was simply thinking that running away from confrontation (almost always the best idea anyway) could leave you rather sweaty.

In all seriousness (which carrying a can of deodorant wasn't before someone decides to report me), once I'd ascertained what it was I doubt I'd take any action about it, but I can't understand why someone would choose to carry something like it - it's of little or no use for defending yourself and is likely to annoy the person you use it on even more. Spend the money on a sensible martial art instead.

[Moxnil]

Just why? If you really feel that threatened then learn places to avoid, take up MMA, learn to run really quickly or even carry a can of deodorant instead, it'll be a lot more use than some red paint.

If I came across anyone who started talking about their "EDC" and "tactical options" and carrying cans of things in holsters my eyebrows would definitely be on the way up. Out of interest what other odds and ends do you walk about carrying?

Hi Sceptre. The points you raise are all good safety measures, apart from the deodorant. I will not carry a canister of that for self-defence, because I think that would be unlawful, as a spray of it in the face could cause considerable temporary pain. It think it would come under an intended offensive weapon, but I'm not sure. If I witness a crime, I can't just run away. I have a duty to try and help, even if that means putting myself in danger. I'm in no less danger than a police officer simply because I'm don't hold the office of constable. Calmly defusing the confrontation is great if you can do it, but can anyone truly say they would feel much safer without any PPE? The spray is far from great, but it's better than nothing at the end of the day. It foams up in the attackers eyes, giving you a momentary advantage. In addition, the marking makes it easier for police officers to search for the person. I've never needed the spray yet, but that is no guarantee that I will never need to use it.

I'm not meaning to offend anyone when I say this, so I apologize if it comes across that way. I'm puzzled when officers who carry PPE themselves become distrustful of fellow citizens who do the same. After all, the public are the police, and the police are the public. We are all equally vulnerable to attack, and therefore I think we are all equally entitled to defend ourselves within the confines of the law. You get greater recognition in law, entitling you to carry offensive weapons for "protection" every day, whereas I don't. However, carrying this type of defence spray is legal for MOP's, and far less dangerous than the weapons you carry, so I don't see any reason to be suspicious of anyone who does.

That was quite a long-winded response to your first question. You'll be delighted to hear my answer to your second one is much shorter. What I carry will vary from time to time. It depends if I have my bag with me, in which case I'll have more. But on my person, I have

Pocket knife / multitool
Farb Gel
Torch
Blackberry
Wallet
House key

I wouldn't bother with it honestly. I don't think its actually illegal to have, using it could be a bit of a headache though. Especially if you were to use it legitimately only to have the assailant turn round and accuse you of using it to try and rob them. That would a) explain physical injury to you and b) you end up arrested on suspicion of robbery.In all honesty the good old 2d maglite offers um, plenty of illumination.I also have a feeling that the stuff would only serve to aggravate a determined assailant.

That too is a possibility, but has the thought of being falsely accused ever stopped you from using your PPE when your life depended on it? If I'm ever at the stage where I have to draw and use it, my safety would be in danger, and I'd have very little to lose from using it.

Edited by Moxnil, 27 September 2011 - 03:08 PM.

[Marty McFly]

I know there has been a couple of topics on this, but they are from quite a while ago and I'm interested in hearing what specials (and regulars) from the police think about these non-noxious defence sprays, and if you've ever come across them on a search. I'm a MOP, and my EDC (Every day carry) includes a canister of Farb Gel spray. It falls outside the scope of the firearms legislation. It is not classed as an offensive weapon as it is not made, adapted or intended to cause injury. As a tactical option, it's not that great, but it's the best the law allows for MOP's.

In the other threads, there was an opinion that it shouldn't be carried because someone might abuse it. I think that raises a valid concern, because there is always a risk that a MOP will abuse their equipment. However the same risk exists that a police officer will abuse their PPE, but I don't think either should be prevented from carrying. I think the law is reasonable as it is, because it allows someone mis-using the item - whether it is a police officer beating up an enemy with his asp, or a drunken MOP spray painting a stranger - to face legal consequences. All things considered, I don't want it to degenerate into something like "All officers are prevented from carrying batons in case someone mis-uses it".

The canister could look like it's a canister of the more powerful sprays, especially when carried in a holster, so I could understand an officer requesting to have a closer look at it to check it really is legal, and isn't PAVA/Captor.

just out of interest, why do you need an "Every Day Carry", what else does it include and why do you walk around with things in holsters? if you've been previously attacked, why not just take up a self defence class - MMA, Krav Maga, etc. Not to mention the fact, depending on where you carry it, if for example you bend over with an open jacket and i see it on your belt in a holster, a police officer is going to assume its CS and your going to end up inconvenienced while they investigate.

the chances of you being the victim of crime were that would be of any use are remote, i.e. if your jumped and have no training in empty hands chances are you'd instinctively curl up in the foetal position. if you pull it in the (highly unlikely) event your confronted with a knife or firearm, the person pointing it isn't going to go "wait, let's look at the canister to make sure its definately not a dye spray and is captor/pava being pointed at me" they're going to "that ****** is gonna CS me" whether it is CS or not and could end up making the situation worse for you. Which leads back to my original question, why?

I'm not meaning to offend anyone when I say this, so I apologize if it comes across that way. I'm puzzled when officers who carry PPE themselves become distrustful of fellow citizens who do the same. [/size]

the difference being, police officers carry PPE on duty for a reason, people get very itchy when you take away their liberty and can kick off, as well as protecting life, property, etc. there are reasons for police carrying PPE to protect themsleves and the public. Off duty police officers don't carry PPE, not even handcuffs, yet unlike you if something serious enough to warrant intervention happens in front of a police officers eyes they have a duty to do something, be it phoning in or intervening, and they do so without any PPE. So why should you carry it, if police officers intervence off duty without "Farb Gel", why do you possibly need it?

Pocket knife / multitool[/size]

just out of interest, how long is the blade on this?

Edited by andyfofo, 27 September 2011 - 03:14 PM.

[Moxnil]

just out of interest, why do you need an "Every Day Carry", what else does it include and why do you walk around with things in holsters? if you've been previously attacked, why not just take up a self defence class - MMA, Krav Maga, etc. Not to mention the fact, depending on where you carry it, if for example you bend over with an open jacket and i see it on your belt in a holster, a police officer is going to assume its CS and your going to end up inconvenienced while they investigate.

I posted what my EDC is in the post above. I think it was made right before you posted, so you probably didn't see it.

the chances of you being the victim of crime were that would be of any use are remote, i.e. if your jumped and have no training in empty hands chances are you'd instinctively curl up in the foetal position. if you pull it in the (highly unlikely) event your confronted with a knife or firearm, the person pointing it isn't going to go "wait, let's look at the canister to make sure its definately not a dye spray and is captor/pava being pointed at me" they're going to "that ****** is gonna CS me" whether it is CS or not and could end up making the situation worse for you. Which leads back to my original question, why?

The same reason you carry your PPE. If someone pulls a gun on you, your baton will be of no use, yet you still carry one. Is that a reason why you should stop carrying a baton - Because it might make the offended more annoyed and the situation worse for you? We both carry our equipment to protect ourselves. The thing I don't get is that while you are happy to carry weapons for "protecting" yourself, you seem a bit distrustful of fellow citizens carrying legal items to do the same. I should make clear that, although I think you can guess my opinion on it, I don't intend this thread to be a debate about whether the law should be changed. I'm more interested in what you personally think of MOP's and legal PPE, and what you'd do if you saw it on a search.


I must have posted before you finished editing. Sorry about that.

the difference being, police officers carry PPE on duty for a reason, people get very itchy when you take away their liberty and can kick off, as well as protecting life, property, etc. there are reasons for police carrying PPE to protect themsleves and the public. Off duty police officers don't carry PPE, not even handcuffs, yet unlike you if something serious enough to warrant intervention happens in front of a police officers eyes they have a duty to do something, be it phoning in or intervening, and they do so without any PPE. So why should you carry it, if police officers intervence off duty without "Farb Gel", why do you possibly need it?

I do actually have a duty to get involved. With that duty in mind, I would rather have any form of PPE than nothing. If we assume that the officer does not keep his equipment at home like some specials do, then he has a couple of alternatives available. He can do "instant arming" with a weapon of opportunity if is reasonable, or they can use any legal alternative - including farb gel. They can carry handcuffs off duty, as can MOP's. I don't, but that's just personal preference.

just out of interest, how long is the blade on this?

It is 2 and 3/4 inches.

Edited by Moxnil, 27 September 2011 - 03:32 PM.

[brianb]

Hi Sceptre. The points you raise are all good safety measures, apart from the deodorant. I will not carry a canister of that for self-defence, because I think that would be unlawful, as a spray of it in the face could cause considerable temporary pain. It think it would come under an intended offensive weapon, but I'm not sure. If I witness a crime, I can't just run away. I have a duty to try and help, even if that means putting myself in danger. I'm in no less danger than a police officer simply because I'm don't hold the office of constable. Calmly defusing the confrontation is great if you can do it, but can anyone truly say they would feel much safer without any PPE? The spray is far from great, but it's better than nothing at the end of the day. It foams up in the attackers eyes, giving you a momentary advantage. In addition, the marking makes it easier for police officers to search for the person. I've never needed the spray yet, but that is no guarantee that I will never need to use it.

I'm not meaning to offend anyone when I say this, so I apologize if it comes across that way. I'm puzzled when officers who carry PPE themselves become distrustful of fellow citizens who do the same. After all, the public are the police, and the police are the public. We are all equally vulnerable to attack, and therefore I think we are all equally entitled to defend ourselves within the confines of the law. You get greater recognition in law, entitling you to carry offensive weapons for "protection" every day, whereas I don't. However, carrying this type of defence spray is legal for MOP's, and far less dangerous than the weapons you carry, so I don't see any reason to be suspicious of anyone who does.
That was quite a long-winded response to your first question. You'll be delighted to hear my answer to your second one is much shorter. What I carry will vary from time to time. It depends if I have my bag with me, in which case I'll have more. But on my person, I have

Pocket knife / multitool
Farb Gel
Torch
Blackberry
Wallet
House key



That too is a possibility, but has the thought of being falsely accused ever stopped you from using your PPE when your life depended on it? If I'm ever at the stage where I have to draw and use it, my safety would be in danger, and I'd have very little to lose from using it.

your coming across as a bit of a want to be, stepping in a situation if it arises is on thing, going tooled up in case a situation occurs is another

the police have dispensation for carry certain things for a very good reasons, one they cant chose not to intervene, they have had training on how and when to use it and then can arrest people,, youd be better off using the blackberry to phone the police, than wade in waving you can of paint about, which is more or less guaranteed to make things worse

[bensonby]

Are you like one of these guys?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/13359936

[Sceptre]

Hi Sceptre. The points you raise are all good safety measures, apart from the deodorant. I will not carry a canister of that for self-defence, because I think that would be unlawful, as a spray of it in the face could cause considerable temporary pain. It think it would come under an intended offensive weapon, but I'm not sure. If I witness a crime, I can't just run away. I have a duty to try and help, even if that means putting myself in danger. I'm in no less danger than a police officer simply because I'm don't hold the office of constable. Calmly defusing the confrontation is great if you can do it, but can anyone truly say they would feel much safer without any PPE? The spray is far from great, but it's better than nothing at the end of the day. It foams up in the attackers eyes, giving you a momentary advantage. In addition, the marking makes it easier for police officers to search for the person. I've never needed the spray yet, but that is no guarantee that I will never need to use it.

I'm not meaning to offend anyone when I say this, so I apologize if it comes across that way. I'm puzzled when officers who carry PPE themselves become distrustful of fellow citizens who do the same. After all, the public are the police, and the police are the public. We are all equally vulnerable to attack, and therefore I think we are all equally entitled to defend ourselves within the confines of the law. You get greater recognition in law, entitling you to carry offensive weapons for "protection" every day, whereas I don't. However, carrying this type of defence spray is legal for MOP's, and far less dangerous than the weapons you carry, so I don't see any reason to be suspicious of anyone who does.
That was quite a long-winded response to your first question. You'll be delighted to hear my answer to your second one is much shorter. What I carry will vary from time to time. It depends if I have my bag with me, in which case I'll have more. But on my person, I have

Pocket knife / multitool
Farb Gel
Torch
Blackberry
Wallet
House key

That too is a possibility, but has the thought of being falsely accused ever stopped you from using your PPE when your life depended on it? If I'm ever at the stage where I have to draw and use it, my safety would be in danger, and I'd have very little to lose from using it.

OK, just to put the deodorant thing to bed I mentioned it more as an indictment of how useless some red dye would be than as a serious suggestion to start Lynxing people in the eyes, but I accept I didn't phrase that very well. Yes, if you took it out planning on using it to spray people with then it would be an offensive weapon, but if you did happen to have it (small Lynx cans or hairsprays are pretty common) and used it in the heat of the moment then you'd most likely be OK just as you would be if you used your multitool whilst in fear for your life.

Moving on...you are by all means entitled to carry it without having to come up with a reason, but I question how much use it would actually be to defend yourself with. If you've placed yourself under some kind of obligation to intervene personally in every little thing you see (something police officers don't always do precisely because we haven't got our little selection of weapons) then you're either going to end up seriously injured, or you're asking to come under a lot of suspicion until the motives of the mysterious man with the can of some kind of spray in a holster have been established. Above all, don't intervene in things if you think there's a decent chance of you getting your face punched in - there's no point in picking fights you're going to lose, you're just creating work for the ambulance.

[brianb]

Are you like one of these guys?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/13359936

im guessing he looks more like this

http://www.google.co...9QEwAA&dur=2553

[Marty McFly]

I posted what my EDC is in the post above. I think it was made right before you posted, so you probably didn't see it.



The same reason you carry your PPE. If someone pulls a gun on you, your baton will be of no use, yet you still carry one. Is that a reason why you should stop carrying a baton - Because it might make the offended more annoyed and the situation worse for you? We both carry our equipment to protect ourselves. The thing I don't get is that while you are happy to carry weapons for "protecting" yourself, you seem a bit distrustful of fellow citizens carrying legal items to do the same. I should make clear that, although I think you can guess my opinion on it, I don't intend this thread to be a debate about whether the law should be changed. I'm more interested in what you personally think of MOP's and legal PPE, and what you'd do if you saw it on a search.

as i said in my post its highly unlikely you'd ever come across a gun, the same goes for me, but if i did i know none of my PPE is going to be of any use, with the exception of the big red button, but regardless my OST covers a firearms incident and what to do/not to do, in our pnb's (it may be different for other forces) we even get a neat little flow chart for firearms incidents (EDIT: having checked the back of my pnb, it is surprisingly one of the few things not in a flow chart, just bullet points), which of course you would consult before taking any course of acton . for any other situation, even with a knife... a baton and cs would come in rather handy, but what would "Farb Gel" do? its not going to "protect" you, but you can be sure if someone moves up the force matrix to assaultive resistance or serious/aggravated then a baton and CS, while not being perfect, would go a hell of a way to protecting a police officer or members of the public. your "ppe" probably going to make it worse, there are some scumbags who would think nothing of stabbing you for having the audacity for pulling the canister on them. At the end of the day, its not "really" PPE. its glorified dye in a canister.

my opinion is that you have no real need for it, so why carry it? if anything, as i said, it could make things alot worse for you.

and on the point of protecting myself, as said previously , off duty i'd have no qualms about getting involved or protecting myself without ppe and having that duty to intervene would make a police officer more of a target off duty as soon as you identify yourself as such, so why do you, as a member of the public, need it?

I do actually have a duty to get involved. With that duty in mind, I would rather have any form of PPE than nothing. If we assume that the officer does not keep his equipment at home like some specials do, then he has a couple of alternatives available. He can do "instant arming" with a weapon of opportunity if is reasonable, or they can use any legal alternative - including farb gel. They can carry handcuffs off duty, as can MOP's. I don't, but that's just personal preference.

a moral duty yes, but can you get disciplined/end up in the newspapers/etc for not doing anything?

just because you can carry handcuffs off duty, doesn't mean you should, do you honestly think any special would live down carrying handcuffs and farb gel off duty... they'd be laughed out of the divison let alone the station? there's no need for a police officer to carry anything off duty, so why should you?

and at the end of the day anyone can pick up a rock off the ground to defend themselves as you said, which is a lot more effective than farb gel...

Edited by andyfofo, 27 September 2011 - 03:49 PM.

[Moxnil]

your coming across as a bit of a want to be, stepping in a situation if it arises is on thing, going tooled up in case a situation occurs is another

Maybe it's just different beliefs. I understand that the concept of an EDC is unusual here, but for me it's totally normal. You pick up your keys on the way out the door almost without thinking. I do the same, except I just take a bit more with me.

I think the difference here is that a police wannabe carries items for the hell of it. I don't. I carefully consider my EDC and can justify the presence of each item in it.

the police have dispensation for carry certain things for a very good reasons, one they cant chose not to intervene, they have had training on how and when to use it and then can arrest people,, youd be better off using the blackberry to phone the police, than wade in waving you can of paint about, which is more or less guaranteed to make things worse

It might appear that way, but I have the same duty as you. I chose my EDC as it gives me options, varying levels of defence. The phone is a tactical option, although it might not appear that way at first. For example, if there's a crime in progress, and no immediate threat to life, my decision would be to phone for backup, and not go straight to to the confrontation option. If the situation has escalated beyond that, there is an immediate danger to you, and you cannot wait many minutes for backup, it helps you to know you have another option to fall back on. Even if all that option will do is buy you a few moments to escape.

If the situation allows me to phone and wait for backup, believe me I will seize that opportunity gladly. I'd feel much safer with you guys on the scene rather than just me. The spray is a fallback option in the event that I am unable to get backup.

[brianb]

Maybe it's just different beliefs. I understand that the concept of an EDC is unusual here, but for me it's totally normal. You pick up your keys on the way out the door almost without thinking. I do the same, except I just take a bit more with me.

I think the difference here is that a police wannabe carries items for the hell of it. I don't. I carefully consider my EDC and can justify the presence of each item in it.




It might appear that way, but I have the same duty as you. I chose my EDC as it gives me options, varying levels of defence. The phone is a tactical option, although it might not appear that way at first. For example, if there's a crime in progress, and no immediate threat to life, my decision would be to phone for backup, and not go straight to to the confrontation option. If the situation has escalated beyond that, there is an immediate danger to you, and you cannot wait many minutes for backup, it helps you to know you have another option to fall back on. Even if all that option will do is buy you a few moments to escape.

If the situation allows me to phone and wait for backup, believe me I will seize that opportunity gladly. I'd feel much safer with you guys on the scene rather than just me. The spray is a fallback option in the event that I am unable to get backup.

phone for back up ???????? phone who ? you mean call the police and let them take over or are there more of you patroling the streets, im not a PC and i have from time to time stepped in to a situation, but its every now and then, months or years apart and not something i go prepared for

where are you finding these

if you see two drunks or two gangs of drunks beating each other up, leave them to, if its a gang beating someone up, then shouting from a safe distance'' im calling the police is the best you can do , domestics are worth keeping out of unless someone is being knocked sensless if its a crime about to start then just being an obvious witness is usually enough to make them think better, if its a girl being mithered , just invite them to come and sit with you

number of times ive though i wish i had a tin of red paint are about equal to the number of times ive thought, i wish it was raining

Edited by brianb, 27 September 2011 - 04:17 PM.

[Rorschach]

I'd rather punch someone than use that spray, i looks pretty useless to me. You could tag someone with it who was running away, sure, but i doesn't seem to have much defensive viability at all.
Probably moe of a liability than anything - potentially giving you a false sense of security, doing little more than annoying whoever you use it on, and getting you hassled by police who're quite rightly suspicious of your carrying a can of spay around for defence.

You can cary i if you want, but I wont and don't.

Edited by Rorschach, 27 September 2011 - 04:17 PM.

[Moxnil]

as i said in my post its highly unlikely you'd ever come across a gun, the same goes for me, but if i did i know none of my PPE is going to be of any use, with the exception of the big red button, but regardless my OST covers a firearms incident and what to do/not to do, in our pnb's (it may be different for other forces) we even get a neat little flow chart for firearms incidents (EDIT: having checked the back of my pnb, it is surprisingly one of the few things not in a flow chart, just bullet points), which of course you would consult before taking any course of acton . for any other situation, even with a knife... a baton and cs would come in rather handy, but what would "Farb Gel" do? its not going to "protect" you, but you can be sure if someone moves up the force matrix to assaultive resistance or serious/aggravated then a baton and CS, while not being perfect, would go a hell of a way to protecting a police officer or members of the public. your "ppe" probably going to make it worse, there are some scumbags who would think nothing of stabbing you for having the audacity for pulling the canister on them. At the end of the day, its not "really" PPE. its glorified dye in a canister.

Neither farb gel or your button will be protection from someone firing a round at you. I am under no illusions about the weakness of farbgel. The best I can hope for is that it buys a few moments for you to escape, or gain the upper hand.

my opinion is that you have no real need for it, so why carry it? if anything, as i said, it could make things alot worse for you.

and on the point of protecting myself, as said previously , off duty i'd have no qualms about getting involved or protecting myself without ppe and having that duty to intervene would make a police officer more of a target off duty as soon as you identify yourself as such, so why do you, as a member of the public, need it?

If that's the opinion you hold, then the items I carry will indeed look strange and suspicious. However I disagree with that opinion.

I don't have a legal duty to get involved, but I do have a moral duty. If I saw you getting attacked, it is my duty as a citizen to assist you in any way I can, from phoning backup to getting involved myself. My main concern with standing by and waiting for backup is that in the time it takes them to arrive, you will still be under attack. So, possibly the solution would be to phone the police, tell them an officer is under attack at the location, and then get involved. That way, backup is on the way, but I'm assisting you instead of sitting around doing nothing. The initial shock of being hit with an unknown substance sprayed from a canister that foams up in his eyes could make the attacker panic and be distracted long enough for you to turn the tables and detain him. It might not work, who knows? The point is if I am in the position where I have to draw the canister, it's already a dangerous situation, and at that point I'd rather I had anything than be totally unarmed.

[callsign-kid]

That too is a possibility, but has the thought of being falsely accused ever stopped you from using your PPE when your life depended on it? If I'm ever at the stage where I have to draw and use it, my safety would be in danger, and I'd have very little to lose from using it.

I wouldn't go down the line of comparing a gravity friction lock baton, CS spray and rigid cuffs to farb gel. They're very different. I honestly believe that farb gel would only serve one purpose, to make things worse. Also if I'm acting as a police officer then there is far less I can reasonably be accused of after the event. Not to mention I know how to write notes to protect myself legally. Do you know the relevant legislation when it comes to self defence? Have I ever considered using my PPE and not? I have actually. Very often I can achieve the desired result using hand to hand techniques instead which is why fundamentally you want to be able to hold your own without use of other equipment. A good option would be to learn boxing. A whistle would be a better option than gel because it would get the attention of other people and no criminal wants a bunch of witnesses.

[MC1]

What situation have you been in to make you think like this? I'm not insulting you here, but the way you write makes you come across as needlessly paranoid. Have you ever had need for this spray?

Also, isn't the whole point of this spray identification? I.e nothing to do with self defence?

[David]

In fairness, they are much akin to the rape alarm canisters. I can't see the harm in it. If it can save a MOP from coming to harm and help identify a suspect why would anybody have a problem.

I can. Not everyone who carries it will be an innocent MoP carrying it for 'defence' - and if we stop a person who is known to be a violent offender, what are we going to say to him when we know we can't relieve him of his can he's carrying for 'defence'?

As I've said so often in the past, far better to have a blanket ban on all these things so that they can be relieved from carriers every time they are discovered.

[Peteee]

I'm not insulting you here, but the way you write makes you come across as needlessly paranoid. Have you ever had need for this spray?

Depends where you're from I guess, when I was the victim of an attempted robbery the other week I sure wish I'd had something to defend myself.

In the end, my "magic badge/shield" as people so often joke about on here did actually stop me getting more of a kicking.