138 replies to this topic

[Londonbased]

If you are pointing out something like that, it is best to include the full facts.

They didn't imply that it was a straight £6,000 bonus, but added up the maximum possible ammount any one tube driver could make, including the incentive payment, payment for anti-social hour shifts, overtime etc. and worked out that the absolute maximum a tube driver could (in theory) make, would be £6,000.

The likihood this would ever happen is slim to none. It's the media using their facts to stir up opinion, that's all.

I did point out that this nonsense came from the Evening Standard and that it was rubbish.

[Truncheon]

Bob Crow's motivations are predominantly political, and he has always wanted to make life hard for the coalition government. There is no doubt in my mind that if Labour were in power at present, there would be fewer strikes by the transport unions purely because of the relationship he has with them, and the influence he has over them.

Complete nonsense. There were still industrial relations breakdowns when Ken Livingston was mayor, have you a short memory? Bob Crow would cause trouble for anyone in power. Years ago when I was an RMT member, Bob Crow was telling the members to not vote Labour, so I don't think he has much in the way of love for them.

[Londonbased]

Then they need to ask Bob Crow to change his tune - he has only mentioned on the side that T&Cs are changing and has implied they are only changing because a bonus was demanded, and the crux of the issue (the way he seems to portray it) is that drivers want money for the inconvenience they will be caused by the games.

Bob Crow's motivations are predominantly political, and he has always wanted to make life hard for the coalition government. There is no doubt in my mind that if Labour were in power at present, there would be fewer strikes by the transport unions purely because of the relationship he has with them, and the influence he has over them.

That's not true.
It's all about terms and conditions.
The tube unions recently agreed to a multi-year pay deal which will carry them beyond the Olympics (i.e. there will be no striking on the tube over pay for the next five years)
It's not about being paid extra to work your contracted hours.
Yes, Bob Crow is political. All trade unions are political. Why shouldn't he make "life hard" for this coalition government who are making life jolly well hard for everybody else (Winsor Report anyone? Recent Budget?)
When New Labour (I refuse to call them Labour as they have lost touch with their roots) were in power Crow attacked them when they got it wrong and will do so whoever is in power attacking workers' terms and conditions.
The RMT is no longer affiliated to New Labour and has no influence over them.
The unions are not threatening a strike over this and will not strike.
London Underground want them to alter their contracts of employment and change their terms and conditions for the Olympics.
The unions want something back for this. It's not for "inconvenience"
If agreement can't be reached then staff will work their agreed hours.

No ones forcing them its part of the job there are lots of people working apart from the Emergency services, Security, Shop workers, Recovery drivers to name a few,

They will be running at reduced capacity so i would suspect that not all of them will be working and at the end of the day its the job they signed on to do if they dont like it find alternative employment

Is that your advice to regular officers unhappy with the Winsor report?
Nobody is forcing you to do the job. If you don't like it find another job?

It's not as simple as that.

[Kellym82]

The unions are not threatening a strike over this and will not strike.

That is the opposite to how it appears to us working public who use the tube every day.

I do completely understand your frustrations, and I also understand that having a union can have it's benefits. I for one, however, don't think I would be able to bring myself to strike over something like the tube and other services seem to do. Life is hard for everyone at the moment. Whoever was in power would have had to create a budget similar to that the coalition has produced, there really isn't an easy way out of it. In my opinion people need to realise the whole country is in this together and that striking to benefit a few probably isn't the best thing. We've all become rather selfish in times of austerity.

Now, in regards to the Olympics, I understand what you are saying, and don't doubt that the T&Cs they are suggesting were too much (heard about the one about unlimited flexibility on shifts I think it was!), however you have to see it from an outsider's point of view as well. What we see is the tube being selfish again - it is the veins of London, and yes of course you are 100% entitled to decent working conditions (as the rest of us our but don't always get either). It just so often seems that the unions like to use the threat of bringing London to a standstill, like it brings them some sort of sick enjoyment.

I'm not blaming all the workers necessarily, as I said before, the representation in the media (from what you have said) is very different to the truth, hence it doesn't make sense to Joe Public as to why you should be able to get exactly what you want by threatening to make life hard for everyone else.

I hope that makes sense - I'm not having a dig at individual drivers, but at the Unions, the way they portray your case in the media is hardly the best.

[Truncheon]

I hope that makes sense - I'm not having a dig at individual drivers, but at the Unions, the way they portray your case in the media is hardly the best.

I think really you are having a dig at just the RMT?

Without looking it up, did you even know that Mick Whelan was the general secretary of ASLEF? Most people don't. Because Mick is an eloquent person. I've only ever heard him (and his predecessor Keith Norman) speak on BBC Radio 4. The mainstream media ignore them because they do make well reasoned points. Without looking it up, I couldn't tell you who was leader of the TSSA or Unite unions either, probably for the same reason.

Seriously. You beleive everything you hear in the media? Even stuff which you know something about like policing? Come on!

At our place we actually have an agreement between ASLEF and the TOC (train operating company) to not talk publically about pay negotiations. So when our talks are due for next year's pay deal, there won't be much we can say. I'm sure that won't stop people drawing their own conclusions at the time though.

What we see is the tube being selfish again - it is the veins of London, and yes of course you are 100% entitled to decent working conditions (as the rest of us our but don't always get either). It just so often seems that the unions like to use the threat of bringing London to a standstill, like it brings them some sort of sick enjoyment.

The RMT are not threatening industrial action during the Olympics! This is your perception, which has been fuelled by the media!
By the way, I think it is out of order to call anyone going on strike selfish. London does not grind to a halt when the tube goes on strike. People just find other ways to get about, such as walking, taxi, cycling, driving, sharing lifts, bus etc... Sure it may be slower and take longer, but it is still possible to get around. I could use your own argument against you and say you are selfish for demanding someone else work regardless of T&Cs just for your own benefit.

[Kellym82]

Truncheon, if you re-read what I have put you will see that I am agreeing with you on a number of points!
The public's perception is its reality - what we are told is what we use to base our opinions around.

I am not naive enough to believe what the media tells me, but what I am trying to tell you is what the general public gets told, and the impressions we are given are hardly favourable. You can't expect the public to be able to base opinions on facts and information they are not provided with. The media is a right royal pain in the rear end quite often in the limited information it gives us, but we have to accept that this information does form the basis for the majority of people's decisions as it is the information widely available.

And I would say London does seriously suffer when the Tube stops, and I'm sure if you asked any other commuter whose journey already takes over an hour across London would probably say the same. It would most likely take me over 3 hours to commute to work without the tube, do you think that is an acceptable length of time to spend on my journey each way?

Out of interest, what does the RMT say it will do if the changes to T&Cs are implemented and they don't get the financial softner?

[Truncheon]

I am not naive enough to believe what the media tells me, but what I am trying to tell you is what the general public gets told, and the impressions we are given are hardly favourable. You can't expect the public to be able to base opinions on facts and information they are not provided with. The media is a right royal pain in the rear end quite often in the limited information it gives us, but we have to accept that this information does form the basis for the majority of people's decisions as it is the information widely available.

Yes I accept this, but in your post you keep referring to we, which surely includes you?!

And I would say London does seriously suffer when the Tube stops, and I'm sure if you asked any other commuter whose journey already takes over an hour across London would probably say the same. It would most likely take me over 3 hours to commute to work without the tube, do you think that is an acceptable length of time to spend on my journey each way?

At the end of the day London does not grind to a standstill, which is what you said on your previous post. I agree that nobody enjoys a three hour commute, but as I said before, it is still possible to get around, even if it takes longer.

Out of interest, what does the RMT say it will do if the changes to T&Cs are implemented and they don't get the financial softner?

I have no idea, I'm not in the RMT and don't work for London Underground. A search of the RMT website says....

“This dispute will now be put back in front of the RMT executive which will consider our next move.”

Edited by Truncheon, 10 April 2012 - 12:21 PM.

[Kellym82]

I'm not going to argue over semantics - I have said I feel it is unfair that T&Cs are being changed in the way they are. All I have tried to do is explain why the general populus of London might have a negative view of the unions and also of drivers.

I think before this turns into a pointless argument I shall leave it at that - it is not reasonable to travel 3hrs each way for work, nor is it reasonable for people to have T&Cs changed beyond the Olympics. During the Olympics lots of people are going to be under alternative work arrangements, and are dealing with it.

I have never said that long term changes to T&Cs were acceptable as I definitely don't think they are in this instance.

[Giraffe]

it is not reasonable to travel 3hrs each way for work, nor is it reasonable for people to have T&Cs changed beyond the Olympics. During the Olympics lots of people are going to be under alternative work arrangements, and are dealing with it.

I agree. When you factor in the stupidly high cost of public transport in this country (both in and out of London), the level of service passengers get is really not good enough. From a commuters perspective, the passenger is forgotten about in all the bickering between the unions, staff, management and politicians - bickering which is frankly a bit pathetic. All they do is blame each other.

Ultimately the London Underground belongs to those who travel on it, and yet they are the ones getting the bum deal in terms of exorbitant fares and very very poor service.

[Winkworth]

I drive a truck for 10, 11 sometimes 12 hours a day. 50-60 hour week.

I'd argue that's more tiring than a tube train, which is far easier.

The thing about truck and bus driving, which are tiring jobs and not paid as well, is that there is a near endless queue of people who can do the job and at short notice, that is why fuel tanker and tube train drivers are better paid.

Edited by Winkworth, 12 May 2012 - 05:42 PM.

[Winkworth]

I agree. When you factor in the stupidly high cost of public transport in this country (both in and out of London), the level of service passengers get is really not good enough. From a commuters perspective, the passenger is forgotten about in all the bickering between the unions, staff, management and politicians - bickering which is frankly a bit pathetic. All they do is blame each other.

Ultimately the London Underground belongs to those who travel on it, and yet they are the ones getting the bum deal in terms of exorbitant fares and very very poor service.

The Underground and bus is very good, just look at the frequency of trains now, even on a Sunday. Gone are the days of 15 to 20 minute service at the weekends and late at night, there are trains in Central London every 2 minutes. The day and night buses in London are far better than anything offered in the rest of the country. I remember what services used to be like in the 1970s and 1980s, passengers have not had it so good.


Privatised railways are real rip-off with insane amounts of money being made by the rail franchises and the banking consortiums leasing trains, even when the trains were paid for by the taxpayer.

[Giraffe]

The Underground and bus is very good, just look at the frequency of trains now, even on a Sunday. Gone are the days of 15 to 20 minute service at the weekends and late at night, there are trains in Central London every 2 minutes. The day and night buses in London are far better than anything offered in the rest of the country. I remember what services used to be like in the 1970s and 1980s, passengers have not had it so good.


Privatised railways are real rip-off with insane amounts of money being made by the rail franchises and the banking consortiums leasing trains, even when the trains were paid for by the taxpayer.

You cannot compare it to the 70s and 80s because today there are far more people using public transport than back then. Even on a Sunday many tube trains are packed, with no air conditioning and there are frequent delays because of engineering works. Every morning my train to Waterloo is standing room only. If I'm going to pay over £2k a year for a ticket then I don't think getting a seat is too much to ask for. Whether it's better than the rest of the country is a matter of opinion - again transport may be more frequent but more people use the system. Public transport in other countries runs far more efficiently and ticket prices are lower.

The fact is the over all shoddy service is because of the politicians, the management, the staff and the unions. The passenger is the one who loses out in all this and it's about time that something was done to improve public transport in this country.

[Londonbased]

Hear Hear!
But you are wrong in blaming the staff and the unions. That's rather like blaming the police and the federation for the shambolic Criminal Justice system. Or blaming NHS staff for the shocking state of the NHS.
Tube and Rail staff are on the frontline of a shoddy outfit and are trying their utmost to make it work. But sometimes you have to make a stand and strike to draw public attention to management attempts to cut corners and reduce safety standards.
Transport for London (like the police) champions mediocre management.
Why is it the staff's fault you can't get a seat?
Why is it the staff's fault there is no air conditioning?
And why is it the staff's fault that there is endless engineering work done by private companies (which the unions fought against) who are just out for what they can get?

All management failures and incompetence. Maybe we should arrange a protest march in London

Edited by Londonbased, 12 May 2012 - 09:17 PM.

[Killicksparker]

Bus drivers are threatening to strike if they don't receive extra pay for working during the Olympics.

Off-duty bus drivers yesterday protested outside the Transport for London head office demanding bonuses for those working during the games. Ballot papers were sent out to 20,000 members of the Unite workers union to canvass opinion on taking strike action. The union wants a £500 bonus payment for working during the games because of the expected increase in passenger numbers. But Transport for London said bus workers were employed by private firms who set their pay.

Unite says it expects 800,000 extra passengers to travel on buses during the Olympics and is demanding bonuses similar to those promised to employees of London Underground, London Overground, Docklands Light Railways, Network Rail and Virgin.
It claims bus drivers are the only London transport workers not receiving extra pay. But bus workers in London are employed by 21 separate companies who set their pay - not by Transport for London.

Unite's regional secretary for London, Peter Kavanagh, said: 'With 72 days left until the Games begin and a strike ballot under way, it's astonishing that bus operators are still doing zero to resolve this dispute and TfL is refusing to get involved.
'Passengers should direct their anger at TfL and the bus companies. Their behaviour is a massive dereliction of duty to London.
'If bus workers take strike action up to and during the Olympic Games the bus companies and TFL will be to blame.'

It is thought London Underground drivers could earn up to an extra £6,000 in bonus payments for working during the Olympics.
A deal will see them earn an extra £1,000 for turning up to work, along with double payments for the most important shifts, such as those during the opening ceremony of the London Games. Drivers are also in line for overtime payments, and enhanced pay packets for shifts which extend beyond 1.30am.

Previously, MPs have condemned payments to drivers as a 'bribe' and accused the unions of holding the public to ransom.
Despite pressure for public sector pay freezes, London Underground conceded to demands from Aslef, the driver's unions, without a strike being threatened because they know that drivers will be required to transport most of the one million spectators travelling to Olympic venues each day.

In January 500 Docklands Light Railway workers were told they will be guaranteed five hours of overtime a week, for which they will be paid 75 per cent above their normal shift rate - on top of a £900 bonus simply for turning up to work during the Olympics.

Read more: http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz1v81RERQ4

Another group jumping on the Olympic bandwagon

Edited by Killicksparker, 17 May 2012 - 12:17 PM.