26 replies to this topic

[lugslou]

Hi there,

I need some clarification regarding Sec 59 issued to me by PCSO.

I have never had a criminal record nor received any warnings/cautions in the past and prided myself on that.

My boyfriend was testing my Son's pitbike just at the back of private garages where i live.

A while after I had a PCSO at my door. He said that my bike had been seen at several locations and that he was going to issue me with a Sec 59 - I had not even been out of my house! I know for a fact this is false because i was watching my boyfriend the whole time and he never left the vicinity. The PCSO asked who the bike belongs to and I said my Son who is 13 but is away on holiday. He stated several complaints had been made about the bike and how it was being used in an appropriate manner. I explained that i was not on the bike but my boyfriend was testing it after carrying out works. He then continued to state that I work for a Local Authority, which got my back up (and i'm a bit stressed as I am pregnant) I was annoyed because what relevance does it bear knowing where I work, and did he in fact sourced that information lawfully? I refused to accept the sec 59 so he replied that he will put it on the property? I was so mad that i shut the door in his face. Wrong I know.

Now, i need to know the ramifications of a sec 59 applied to me? Is it recorded against CRB and for how long? How can a sec 59 be applied when i was not even on the bike! I find it very unfair and unjust as to how these civil laws are floundered about with no real hard factual evidence is beyond me.

I have reason to believe that he has acted unlawfully such as, where i work bears no relevance with regard to the sec 59 he was dealing with. You only have to look at the principles of the DPA and HRA. about making lawful enquires and measures that are in place should one contravene them.

Comments most welcome.

[Marty McFly]

did the PCSO say it was seen at several locations THAT day? as from your statement, it doesn't seem so.

surely its not out of the realm of possibility that a teenage boy "could" be riding it irresponsibly, before he went on holiday, of course.

[oddbod]

[disclaimer]
Sounds as though your son is causing ongoing issues with the pit bike and the PCSO is flexing their muscles. Perhaps you should get rid of it while he's 'on holiday' and then complain to your local force about the PCSO.

[lugslou]

My Son doesn't even know how to ride the bike. My boyfriend knows and was fixing it for him. I have no reason to lie, my Son is not here and nor would i take any responsibility for his actions - that would be of his own doing.

What i want to know. What are the ramifications of having a sec 59 and is it possible to apply it to my home? How long does a sec 59 remain on file for CRB checks.

Is it also possible for a sec 59 to be applied even though i was not on the bike?

Can anyone clarify whether in the course of PCSO duties do you have the legal gateway/legislation to inquiry about ones personal life when it is not in line with the offence in question.

I am a counter fraud investigator so it is imperative that i know as his actions may affect my livelihood.

Thank you.

[Cheetah]

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[Marty McFly]

so what your saying is NO ONE has ever rode on the bike in question, before today? equally the comment about your son riding it previously, could apply to your boyfriend if he has been fixing it and testing it.

who says he found it out that way?

Police officers and PCSO's work with local authorities and partner agencies, could it not be possible he saw you while at the local authority you work for and remembered your face? your just making assumptions about how he knows, there could be a perfectly valid reason, as above.

Edited by andyfofo, 04 August 2011 - 01:19 PM.

[oddbod]

A S59 warning cannot be issued to a dwelling. With all due respect why not ring your local police station and ask why you have been issued with one (when you were not the rider) and what the consequences are? They will at least be in full possession of the facts and not be commenting on a one sided scenario.

[Quebec]

Are PCSO's allowed to dish out S. 59's?
I'm sure that section states only Constables are.

[lugslou]

Exactly my point. The bike was broke hence to my boyfriend fixing it.

I know what PCSO do in the course of their work. I am not here to discredited PCSO and apologise if it came across in that manner. I do not work where i live, so how he would know is beyond me.

Could someone please answer my question: is it possible for a PCSO to apply a sec 59 even though i was not on the bike. Simple question really.

Thank you oddbod.

Edited by lugslou, 04 August 2011 - 01:26 PM.

[Marty McFly]

Exactly my point. The bike was broke hence to my boyfriend fixing it.

I know what PCSO do in the course of their work. I am not here to discredited PCSO and apologise if it came across in that manner. I do not work where i live, so how he would know is beyond me.

Could someone please answer my question: is it possible for a PCSO to apply a sec 59 even though i was not on the bike. Simply question really.

exactly my point then, your boyfriend was fixing and testing it, so logically could have rode it irresponsibly while testing it and had compliants from members of the public?

Just because you don't work where you live doesn't mean he couldn't have seen you, some agencies and local authroity departments are centralised, and as a result he would have to travel. He could've seen you while off duty at your work, etc. there are several valid reasons.



And if it was a simple question, you wouldn't have typed up an essay of background in your first post, I'm merely poking holes in your story to try and establish a fuller picture, before I answer.

Edited by andyfofo, 04 August 2011 - 01:31 PM.

[Thomo121]

PCSOs cannot issue s.59 warnings, or atleast they can't in our force, whether or not a Chief Constable has the power to issue PCSOs within his force with the power to do so is a question best answered by someone local to you. Which police force covers your area?

A s.59 warning cannot be issued to a dwelling. It is stored on PNC on both the vehicle and the respective driver and lasts for 12 months. It is not a conviction and as far as I am aware does not show on a CRB check, because it is not a criminal record, it's just information available to officers when requested. Is the bike registered to DVLA i.e. does it have a registration number? And did the PCSO ask for your name and D.O.B.?

[5460]

PCSOs cannot issue s.59 warnings, or atleast they can't in our force, whether or not a Chief Constable has the power to issue PCSOs within his force with the power to do so is a question best answered by someone local to you. Which police force covers your area?

A s.59 warning cannot be issued to a dwelling. It is stored on PNC on both the vehicle and the respective driver and lasts for 12 months. It is not a conviction and as far as I am aware does not show on a CRB check, because it is not a criminal record, it's just information available to officers when requested. Is the bike registered to DVLA i.e. does it have a registration number? And did the PCSO ask for your name and D.O.B.?

It is a power that can be given by a CC for his/her PCSOs, but as you state not all forces have gone that route.

Indeed, it is a warning, not a conviction.

Finally, +1 Thomo, great answer which should help the OP a lot

[Iridium]

Exactly my point. The bike was broke hence to my boyfriend fixing it.

I know what PCSO do in the course of their work. I am not here to discredited PCSO and apologise if it came across in that manner. I do not work where i live, so how he would know is beyond me.

Could someone please answer my question: is it possible for a PCSO to apply a sec 59 even though i was not on the bike. Simple question really.

Thank you oddbod.

PCSO's can and frequently do issue Sec.59 warnings in our force.

I really think you should ring your local police station and speak to the beat Seargent or the PCSO himself. They will be able to answer all of your questions and explain how it will affect you. A Sec.59 warning will not appear on a CRB check though.

I know you were frustrated, but perhaps if you didn't close the door on the PCSO, he'd have been able to explain fully to you what a Sec 59 is and why it was being issued. Remember, they are only doing their job and acting on information from the public.

Hope you manage to sort it all out.

Edited by Iridium, 04 August 2011 - 07:04 PM.

[Kewstu]

My Son doesn't even know how to ride the bike. My boyfriend knows and was fixing it for him. I have no reason to lie, my Son is not here and nor would i take any responsibility for his actions - that would be of his own doing.

What i want to know. What are the ramifications of having a sec 59 and is it possible to apply it to my home? How long does a sec 59 remain on file for CRB checks.

Is it also possible for a sec 59 to be applied even though i was not on the bike?

Can anyone clarify whether in the course of PCSO duties do you have the legal gateway/legislation to inquiry about ones personal life when it is not in line with the offence in question.

I am a counter fraud investigator so it is imperative that i know as his actions may affect my livelihood.

Thank you.

This is the problem in society today that parents do not take responsibility for their children's behaviour, if he is 13 as stated then sorry you are responsible in telling your son how to behaved and conduct himself, your the one bringing him up.

Why not ask the PCSO to see the evidence he has of your son riding the bike?

[Big Brother]

When I do Section 59's, if it's based on testimony from a member of public I always get a PNB statement first with as much detail as possible. That way there's no argument when I can describe what rider was wearing e.t.c.



To the OP, there is a possibility you haven't thought of. Either your BF or son are lying. You have to question, what would the PCSO gain from the extra work and hassle of issuing a Section 59 to someone who didn't do anything wrong?

[Sidious]

Now, i need to know the ramifications of a sec 59 applied to me? Is it recorded against CRB and for how long? How can a sec 59 be applied when i was not even on the bike! I find it very unfair and unjust as to how these civil laws are floundered about with no real hard factual evidence is beyond me.

I have reason to believe that he has acted unlawfully such as, where i work bears no relevance with regard to the sec 59 he was dealing with. You only have to look at the principles of the DPA and HRA. about making lawful enquires and measures that are in place should one contravene them.

Comments most welcome.

1) A warning under s.59 of the Police Reform Act is simply that - a warning. As such it is not a conviction or caution, and it will not be recorded on a CRB check. It will be recorded locally and on the police national computer and it is valid for one year.

2) The warning would have been given to you as the legal owner of the bike (although it is your son's because he is 13, the parent/guardian is responsible) - this is because if the vehicle is seen being ridden in circumstances contrary to s.59 PRA in the next year it can be seized by the police. You don't have to have been riding the bike to be warned.

3) s.59 PRA is a piece of legislation which can be exercised by a PCSO, however this has to be conferred by the Cheif Constable in each police area. Not every force has conferred this power.

4) It is lawful for the PCSO to enquire what he likes of you. You don't have to answer it. Whether or not it is relevant to the matter in question is something which only he would be able to answer.

I am a counter fraud investigator so it is imperative that i know as his actions may affect my livelihood.

They won't affect this in any way at all.

[brimstone]

1) A warning under s.59 of the Police Reform Act is simply that - a warning. As such it is not a conviction or caution, and it will not be recorded on a CRB check. It will be recorded locally and on the police national computer and it is valid for one year.

This is true. However, the S.59 warning will be given only when an offence has been committed - driving without due care & attention/consideration or off-road driving. While the S.59 itself is not a conviction or caution, it should always be given in conjunction with reporting to court for one of the two offences.

[Big Brother]

. While the S.59 itself is not a conviction or caution, it should always be given in conjunction with reporting to court for one of the two offences.

We have always been told it is perfectly acceptable to use it on it's own as an alternative, especially as a breach can lead to your vehicle being seized without the possibility of a court appearance.

[oddbod]

You are both right, the first warning is exactly that. Where a second warning is issued and a vehicle is seized it is best practice to report for the offence/s committed on the first/second or both occasions.

[BlueBand]

Wish people would stop registering on here to ask officers questions, ring your local station people!

[funkywingnut]

A S59 doesn't have to be in conjunction with another offence and it can be given out by most PCSO's, force dependent.

Bottom line is your responsible for your son and you cannot possibly say that your son has never ridden the bike, you cannot blindly believe your child, because believe it or not KIDS LIE.

[BlueBand]

A S59 doesn't have to be in conjunction with another offence and it can be given out by most PCSO's, force dependent.

Bottom line is your responsible for your son and you cannot possibly say that your son has never ridden the bike, you cannot blindly believe your child, because believe it or not KIDS LIE.

Well said.

[SC Ben]

Wish people would stop registering on here to ask officers questions, ring your local station people!

I wish people wouldn't bump threads that are nearly a year old!

[BlueBand]

I wish people wouldn't bump threads that are nearly a year old!

Like it matters...

[rosco]

Like it matters...

Well it does if you are trying to tell someone off who posted something almost a year ago, as a single issue poster and has never returned.
And no, I don't think it will help your application to be mini-moderator for this area.