14 replies to this topic

[Citizen]

Hi there,

I'd appreciate any help opinions you could give me, before I start I am aware of the Legal Disclaimer of the site, and I will post it below. I recognise that any help given is not necessarily fact, and isn't endorsed by PS.COM, and may not be accurate. I also know that any statements and comments left are unofficial.

To add, I WILL be contacting the Citizens Advice Bureau, but I wanted to ask here as well, as I feel the more information I have the better.

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I recently bought a Motorbike from a Gentleman, I have a written receipt which I will quote verbatim below.

Bill of Sale, This is to certify that I the above being the legal registered owner of Honda Deauville **** *** have sold this motorbike on this date to (me)
The Purchaser being given every opportunity to inspect the bike and acknowledges this is a "Sold as seen sale"

Then Signed by both of us.

Now, I have just returned from the garage to be told that at some point this bike has possibly been in a serious incident. As the Top and Bottom Yokes are damaged and need to be replaced prior to MOT in October, for New Yokes I'm looking at £800. Now at no point did the seller even mention that the bike had been dropped, let alone ever in an incident. Now the bike is fine in every other way, there's no damage to the sub-frame, there's nothing else wrong with it. However I obviously want to get this fixed as quickly as possible.

Do I have any recourse? The Garage recommended I contact Citizens Advice which I WILL be doing, I've already begun my search for second hand parts, and I have been reading the Receipt from the seller, and also going through the service history and MOT paperwork. Now I have the previous MOTs, however with the previous MOT it is marked as having advisories, yet the stapled attachment listing mentioned advisories has been removed.

Is it up to me to have known this, am I at fault for failing to pay to have a Vehicle Check done? Or do I have any recourse because the previous owner failed to disclose an incident, and potentially removed documents (hard to prove).

I've been told to call him and seek his better nature to potentially offer assistance, but (not to be cynical) he probably saw me coming, laughed all the way to the bank, and will tell me to politely refrain from calling, and put the phone down.

I'm extremely angry at myself and frankly embarrassed. But nevertheless, I'd like as much information and advice as possible to come to a decision as to my next course of action.

Another thing I need to consider, while I don't KNOW the bike has been in an incident, and I couldn't tell them for definite or give any information, do I need to inform my Insurance Company that I SUSPECT it may have been?

It rides fine, it's a real pleasure, and it's perfectly roadworthy, the amount the steering is out is barely noticeable, however I take pride in my vehicles, and I want it as pristine as it can be at all times.

Also if anyone knows any reputable spares places, then I'd be very grateful is someone would PM me contact details.

I appreciate your time and consideration.

Edited by Citizen, 19 July 2011 - 01:22 PM.

[Rocket]

How old is the bike, and how many previous owners does it have?

[Citizen]

How old is the bike, and how many previous owners does it have?

It's 2002 and 5.

The previous owner, stated he was selling due to medical grounds, he only had it for 2 months, and I've only had it a month, and thankfully whenever I buy a vehicle, I get a mechanic I trust to look it over.

I suspect that he took it to a garage had some cover-up work done (changed the exhaust, had the rear brake welded, and some other work which I have his receipts for) to disguise any damage. And was told the full extent then decided to sell. Hence why I'm wondering if there was an intent to deceive or a direct lie through omission. But I have 3 years of MOTs and I was told at the garage that no-one would pass the bike with yokes like that, and that any incident must have occurred after October 2010. It is possible the previous owner didn't have the incident, it may have been the Gentleman before, but nevertheless is there a legal right to disclose? I'm also wondering if the previous owner informed his insurance company at all? Or is that nothing to do with me? Please excuse my ignorance, this isn't a subject I'm familiar with, I'm usually much more thorough with my vehicle purchases.

[Rocket]

With 5 previous owners you'll never prove that whoever you purchased the bike from actually knew about the damage. It is possible that it has been MOT'd wherever he took it to with the damage there but it was not noticed. You will have a job to prove it I would say.

Caveat emptor.

[jeddy]

Hmm im no expert but if it was sold as seen and you had every chance to look it over then unfortunately it would seem you have brought a lemon !

Lessons of life that if you buy something you should have an expert look over what your buying if you want to avoid what has happened.

You state that the person who sold you the bike may not have known himself it was knackered so thats going be his defence i would imagine.


Chalk this up as experience as we have all brought something which we have regretted afterwards....

Maybe someone can be more helpfull.

[Citizen]

Caveat emptor.

Very true. Fair enough, thank you Rocket, I appreciate your time, as I stated earlier, very annoying, and very embarrassing.

My call with the Citizens Advice Bureau was very succinct, and in just about as many words "You do have some buyer's rights, but having signed for sold as seen, the only recourse you'd have is if he'd stated it was something that it wasn't. e.g. if he'd said it was in perfect condition, however, omitting details unfortunately isn't covered" Which seems fair, however unfortunate I may find it. However I do find it odd that to out-right lie is frowned upon, but to lie through omission and to not disclose potential problems is by the by. Especially when as Rocket mentioned perhaps the previous garage didn't spot it, then in which case, if a trained, qualified, mechanic would have difficulty spotting it, how can Joe-public be expected to spot it, and then be potentially ripped off. Now thankfully, I can have this repaired and the bike will be fine, but this COULD have been MUCH worse. Anyway the law is the law as it stands, and I appear to have gotten the brown sticky end of the stick this time. Thank you again Rocket, it's appreciated. A lesson has been learnt.

Edit:\ and thank you Jeddy, you posted while I was replying.

Edit 2:\ On the plus side, a day that was going quite badly, has just had a silver lining, I was told to expect to pay £800 for the yokes, however, after contacting some reputable specialist sites that come through recommendations, it's looking to potentially a lot less than that. so fingers crosses, I may not be completely "boned" as Bender from Futurama would put it.

Edited by Citizen, 19 July 2011 - 01:52 PM.

[Killicksparker]

Caveat emptor

You should have had a mechanic check it over before parting with your hard earned. I bet you don't fall for that one again

[Rocket]

Just had a rummage on ebay for you - Bottom Yoke and Top Yoke

Might not be for exactly your model but both for around £50 each and a contact for 2nd hand spares if nothing else.

Hope this is of help!

[Citizen]

Just had a rummage on ebay for you - Bottom Yoke and Top Yoke

Might not be for exactly your model but both for around £50 each and a contact for 2nd hand spares if nothing else.

Hope this is of help!

Thank you, I shall check it out. I've managed to find some new from a Honda Dealership for £340 which for saying I was told to expect to pay £800 for a new set, isn't looking too bad.

But thank you I shall be looking at all options, checking feedback scores, and seeing how many people recommend the same people. Chalking it up to experience. But am genuinely grateful for those that have commented.

[JP7]

Unfortunately, as you've established with CAB, as a private buyer you don't have many rights. A sold as seen bike will be exactly that, you'll be expected to satisfy yourself as to the history and condition of the bike before parting with your money. The vendor is not legally obliged to let you know of any issues, unless you ask.

Dealers are covered by a lot more legislation, you have a lot more recourse if you have problems after buying from a dealership. But you do pay a premium for it.

On a side note, I hope it hasn't soured your purchase too much and you still get to enjoy the bike. I think I've seen you appear in the Bike Owner's thread in the clubs groups and teams area, but do come and chat.

[Rocket]

Hmmm.... If the MOT garage told you it would be £800 and a Honda dealership said it would be only £340 for a set of yokes I'd be seriously taking the bike somewhere else to get a second opinion.

[JasonO]

Would HPI be able to tell you when it was involved in an accident if a claim had been made?

[Dale-Staffs]

Hmmm.... If the MOT garage told you it would be £800 and a Honda dealership said it would be only £340 for a set of yokes I'd be seriously taking the bike somewhere else to get a second opinion.

Ha Ha

I was thinking exactly the same.

I am not saying they are but it could be the MOT garage that are not telling the truth.

Dale

[Citizen]

Unfortunately, as you've established with CAB, as a private buyer you don't have many rights. A sold as seen bike will be exactly that, you'll be expected to satisfy yourself as to the history and condition of the bike before parting with your money. The vendor is not legally obliged to let you know of any issues, unless you ask.

Dealers are covered by a lot more legislation, you have a lot more recourse if you have problems after buying from a dealership. But you do pay a premium for it.

On a side note, I hope it hasn't soured your purchase too much and you still get to enjoy the bike. I think I've seen you appear in the Bike Owner's thread in the clubs groups and teams area, but do come and chat.

Thank you JP7, it's my 4th Bike, and I love it, it rides great, if they hadn't have told me I wouldn't have known, however I obviously require them sorted before MOT, however I shall be taking it to another garage for a second opinion, as I believe Rocket has a very valid point. I went out on a ride with my local club yesterday, I love it, I'd love to get some mainland runs going. But I shall make an effort to be in the bike owners thread a bit more

Hmmm.... If the MOT garage told you it would be £800 and a Honda dealership said it would be only £340 for a set of yokes I'd be seriously taking the bike somewhere else to get a second opinion.

Agreed, I've made arrangements on Monday to take it to a new garage I've not used before.

Would HPI be able to tell you when it was involved in an accident if a claim had been made?

Possibly, but I didn't have it checked before purchase, although there is nothing stopping me from doing so now either.

I've +1'd those who have replied, and I'm out of +1's but if I haven't +1'd you, I shall do in due course. Thank you.



EDIT:\ I should state that these guys aren't the MOT garage, the last MOT was done in Wales, these are just a local garage I have used before and have previously always been reliable, and offer a discount to the club I ride with. However I shall try somewhere else to be safe. It was just in for some new Front Pads and Discs, and they noticed the alignment was out.

Edited by Citizen, 19 July 2011 - 02:29 PM.

[Rocket]

Here is MOT information on wheel alignment - Link

This check need not be carried out if
either the front or rear wheels have already been failed under Section 4.2 for unacceptable buckling eccentricity or damage.

A clamp should be used if available. provided It does not obstruct the straight edge or cord.

If the misalignment is considered excessive, a road test may be conducted, at the tester's discretion, to access the effect on the handling of the machine (Reference Page 1, paragraph 5).

Parallel Misalignment
Some shaft drive machines and those machines which have been adapted for use with side car may have a certain amount of parallel misalignment as standard.
[/size]1. Using a wheel clamp or an assistant
ensure that the front wheel is held upright and in line with the frame.

a. place a straight edge or cord against the rear tyre parallel to it and as high off the ground as other parts (ie silencers, frame etc) will permit;

b. estimate the gap (if any) between the straight edge or cord at the rear points where it is opposite the front tyre;

c. move the straight edge or cord to the other side of the motor cycle and repeat I a. and 1 b. above;

2. Sight along the front wheel and forks and assess any misalignment.

1. Any misalignment which is sufficient to adversely affect the handling or steering of the machine.

Interesting to note that the MOT tester can road test the bike to see if handling is affected.