184 replies to this topic

[Police Constable 1]

Really less training? To what level are WWPP trained, is the training recognised by the home office NPIA (other than the baton training, and who did that and does the Home ofice recognise them too?)


The oath as sworn by full constables, I do not see any restrictions within the UK where they are constables,


“I (insert name) do solemnly and sincerely declare andaffirm that I will well and truly serve the

Queen in the office of constable, with

fairness, integrity, diligence and impartiality,

upholding fundamental human rights and

according equal respect to all people; and

that I will, to the best of my power, cause

the peace to be kept and preserved and

prevent all offences against people and

property; and that while I continue to hold

the said office I will to the best of my skill

and knowledge discharge all the duties

thereof faithfully according to law.”



IF it was to be accepted that WWPP are full constables and always have been, certain members of the WWPP have comitted offences by joining a union.


Also, if they were holders of the 'office of constable' and Police officers as HO/BTP forces are, they wouldn't/couldn't be made redundant could they.

Perhaps they should quickly join the Police Federation.

Is Port of Dover police training recognised by NPIA/HO? I do believe the OPT training was done by HO, same with Port of Liverpool who get their training in OPT done by Merseyside

With regards to BTP and office of Constable, yes we are as you said, however we can be made redundant does that mean we arnt police constables?

[boroughtrainer]

Is Port of Dover police training recognised by NPIA/HO? I do believe the OPT training was done by HO, same with Port of Liverpool who get their training in OPT done by Merseyside

With regards to BTP and office of Constable, yes we are as you said, however we can be made redundant does that mean we arnt police constables?

You can be made redundant? Ohh what a &^**&er, especially in todays climate.

I take that part of the statement back, about BTP being unable to be made redundant. However unlike any of the council instated parks police you cannot join a trade union or strike.

There is the difference.

PoDpol training? Would not have a clue.

With regards to HO training and holding HO certificates. Most of our OST trainers are civvies and they hold HO OST certificates, doesn't make them holders of the office of constable though.

Although I've never considered BTP to by anything other than real force, I think you're brave asking that question on here!!

[Police Constable 1]

You can be made redundant? Ohh what a &^**&er, especially in todays climate.

I take that part of the statement back, about BTP being unable to be made redundant. However unlike any of the council instated parks police you cannot join a trade union or strike.

There is the difference.

PoDpol training? Would not have a clue.

With regards to HO training and holding HO certificates. Most of our OST trainers are civvies and they hold HO OST certificates, doesn't make them holders of the office of constable though.

Although I've never considered BTP to by anything other than real force, I think you're brave asking that question on here!!

My comment on the training was directed to yours about is it recognised by HO/NPIA.

as for BTP being made redundant, you stated

"Also, if they were holders of the 'office of constable' and Police officers as HO/BTP forces are, they wouldn't/couldn't be made redundant could they."

BTP/MDP/CNC and I do believe all other "constabularies" be they parks/ports/tunnels can be made redundant, so although you took it back about BTP, my question still stands are we/they "Police constables" based on your quote

What I think Im trying to say is, you cant say one group are not Police officers because they do not hold the office of constable because they can be made redundant, but then state that other forces who can also be made redundant are infact police officers and hold the office of constable, hope that makes sense

btw I did point out they are only constables when on parks business as per the act that created them so my view is of the same as yours in that off park/park business they are not constables

Edited by Police Constable 1, 18 February 2012 - 06:29 PM.

[Gallifrey]

btw I did point out they are only constables when on parks business as per the act that created them so my view is of the same as yours in that off park/park business they are not constables

Like BTP used to be off the railway then prior to the extended jurisdiction?

[Police Constable 1]

Like BTP used to be off the railway then prior to the extended jurisdiction?

Yes exactly hence the extended jurisdiction being introduced, however, as might be the case with parks police it was never challenged any off area arrests prior to the extended jurisdiction changes

[Radman]

Like BTP used to be off the railway then prior to the extended jurisdiction?

Or how Ports Police are still today - they hold the office of constable but only relation to the ports and three miles of it - does that make them proper constables or not?

Up until 2003 a BTP officer would have lost his powers off of railway property (never stopped BTP bobbies from arresting people mind ) would that mean that a BTP officer would have been carrying his baton unlawfully once he left station property (not conducting duties in relation to the railway?)

A Parks Constable IS a constable no matter how you look at it, they are described as constables in legislation and hold the powers of a Constable in relation to Parks legislation/byelaws - however Criminal matters are out of their remit and they cannot arrest for matters not covered under parks legislation (it seems there is more to parks legislation then just byelaws aswell) however for criminal matters would they not just use any person power of arrest?

Really less training? To what level are WWPP trained, is the training recognised by the home office NPIA (other than the baton training, and who did that and does the Home ofice recognise them too?)

BTP's never used to be recognised under the NPIA - Even promotion boards/tests werent HO standard until the mid 90's, before then alot of it was based on railway regs and law (during the BR days.)

Ports Police isnt recognised or HO approved training either.

Some forces are still reluctant to take on BTP transferee's, often PC's from BTP have to go through their probation AGAIN even though the modules and training are exactly the same.

Edited by Radman, 19 February 2012 - 02:48 AM.

[MerseyLLB]

BTPs jurisdiction (pre 2003) included the clause 'in the vicinity of policed premises'. BTP officers used to make arrests off the back of this and to prevent absurdities the courts accepted very 'broad' interpretations of the term vicinity.

Vicinity was not defined in law and in London you would have been hard pressed to NOT be in the vicinity of policed premises anyway!

[Headset57]

POD initial training was at Ashford for 25 weeks, same as the old RPC.

Parks training was 6 weeks when I was in done by Met. We still did jobs off the parks, usually stuff you come across though and back then it wad S.24/25 and byelaws.

[Radman]

BTPs jurisdiction (pre 2003) included the clause 'in the vicinity of policed premises'. BTP officers used to make arrests off the back of this and to prevent absurdities the courts accepted very 'broad' interpretations of the term vicinity.

Vicinity was not defined in law and in London you would have been hard pressed to NOT be in the vicinity of policed premises anyway!

Yeah but up north where I work you can end up being quite far from a railway - what then? I don't think a court will accept 'in vicinity of' when your ten miles away from the railway track.

[Police Constable 1]

Or how Ports Police are still today - they hold the office of constable but only relation to the ports and three miles of it - does that make them proper constables or not?

Or 1 mile in a lot of cases, I havent heard of one Ports Police having 3 miles limit only 1 or 2 and I know its off topic, but PoDP have the 1 mile from port property, the harbour board own property within the town centre thus the 1 mile limit practically covers the whole of Dover so they are covered if they come accross and incident in the street

A Parks Constable IS a constable no matter how you look at it, they are described as constables in legislation and hold the powers of a Constable[b] in relation to Parks legislation/byelaws - however Criminal matters are out of their remit and they cannot arrest for matters not covered under parks legislation (it seems there is more to parks legislation then just byelaws aswell) however for criminal matters would they not just use any person power of arrest?

Which is what we have all be saying for the last few days......

BTP's never used to be recognised under the NPIA - Even promotion boards/tests werent HO standard until the mid 90's, before then alot of it was based on railway regs and law (during the BR days.)

BTP training was done inline with HO forces for at least the last 30 years, it was done at the regional training centres and then with City of London and now on its own with its own training which follows NPIA

Some forces are still reluctant to take on BTP transferee's, often PC's from BTP have to go through their probation AGAIN even though the modules and training are exactly the same.

Dont I know it! "Sorry we will have to check if BTP is recognised"

Neighbouring force "Yes BTP is recognised"
Force next door to it "No BTP isnt recognised"

So yes I could join one force and my training be recognised and then after a year transfer to the other force as a transferee of the second force and there would be no issue, yet BTP has been stated that it is a recognised force.

However

One thing that has cropped up on a few "enquiry" phone calls I have made, its not the training they are saying isnt recognised, its the assessment centres, when they have been told it is the NPIA standard assessment centre then they state this is recognised, I wonder if the new starters who did the BTP assessment centre will have problems if/when they want to transfer?

Edited by Police Constable 1, 19 February 2012 - 02:14 PM.

[Radman]

BTP training was done inline with HO forces for at least the last 30 years, it was done at the regional training centres and then with City of London and now on its own with its own training which follows NPIA

Asking some of the old boys round the office the training was different to HO and the promotion schemes up the ranks was NOT the same as HO.

Im going off what I was told.

Dont I know it! "Sorry we will have to check if BTP is recognised"

Neighbouring force "Yes BTP is recognised"
Force next door to it "No BTP isnt recognised"

So yes I could join one force and my training be recognised and then after a year transfer to the other force as a transferee of the second force and there would be no issue, yet BTP has been stated that it is a recognised force.

However

One thing that has cropped up on a few "enquiry" phone calls I have made, its not the training they are saying isnt recognised, its the assessment centres, when they have been told it is the NPIA standard assessment centre then they state this is recognised, I wonder if the new starters who did the BTP assessment centre will have problems if/when they want to transfer?

A bloke in my office was told he'd have to re-do his probation if he transfered.

The process is rubbish, we deal with the same stuff HO deal with AND we have to do the full files for our jobs aswell - madness!

[Police Constable 1]

Asking some of the old boys round the office the training was different to HO and the promotion schemes up the ranks was NOT the same as HO.

Im going off what I was told.

Your old boy's must have been in more than 30years then as the old boys/girls at my station say theirs was identical as HO and done at HO training, as for OSPRE exams, they only came in for HO in the 90s

[boroughtrainer]

My comment on the training was directed to yours about is it recognised by HO/NPIA.

as for BTP being made redundant, you stated BTP/MDP/CNC and I do believe all other "constabularies" be they parks/ports/tunnels can be made redundant, so although you took it back about BTP, my question still stands are we/they "Police constables" based on your quote

What I think Im trying to say is, you cant say one group are not Police officers because they do not hold the office of constable because they can be made redundant, but then state that other forces who can also be made redundant are infact police officers and hold the office of constable, hope that makes sense

btw I did point out they are only constables when on parks business as per the act that created them so my view is of the same as yours in that off park/park business they are not constables

PC1 I feel very dizzy after reading the above. I was always lead to beilieve that holders of the office of constable were never able to be made redundant, including BTP and the others that shall be known by their initials. I also think it's pants that you cannot strike, but can be sh4fted with redundancy packages that don't look any better than a street cleaner working for a LA.

If you look at my post I say that I have always looked at BTP as a real force.

The process is rubbish, we deal with the same stuff HO deal with AND we have to do the full files for our jobs aswell - madness!

You do realise that trying to hand over anything to a processing unit is as hard as platting fog while wearing mittens!! I have been able to hand anything over for ages, too busy, not enough staff.

TBH by the time you get everything required by them all that is left is an interview!!!

A full file is sod all, I was doing them all through my probabtion, through the 'case paper accreditied' scheme than ran for a while (all that meant was I could get my record of interviews typed by the typists). I was doing though 3 street duties courses I did, and up until I went into the Training unit for a change and a rest from annoying children scrotes. I used to do referal case files to be, er, well reviewed by the CPS. I don't think we need that now we have a CPS rep at every custody suite station. Although I think they are kept in the same area as the station unicorn opposite the left handed screw drivers.

A bloke in my office was told he'd have to re-do his probation if he transfered.

And yes it is pants that you have to re-do your probabtion.

[Police Constable 1]

And yes it is pants that you have to re-do your probabtion.

That does depend on what force you join and how far you push it with complaining, I know MDP have to re do probation and in BTP that probation is a shorter one, but CNC officers have to start again from day 1

[Radman]

You do realise that trying to hand over anything to a processing unit is as hard as platting fog while wearing mittens!! I have been able to hand anything over for ages, too busy, not enough staff.

TBH by the time you get everything required by them all that is left is an interview!!!

A full file is sod all, I was doing them all through my probabtion, through the 'case paper accreditied' scheme than ran for a while (all that meant was I could get my record of interviews typed by the typists). I was doing though 3 street duties courses I did, and up until I went into the Training unit for a change and a rest from annoying children scrotes. I used to do referal case files to be, er, well reviewed by the CPS. I don't think we need that now we have a CPS rep at every custody suite station. Although I think they are kept in the same area as the station unicorn opposite the left handed screw drivers.

Depends what job you've got on, submitting a file for first hearing is generally not a problem - but then comes the constant requests for upgrades ect.

Then I find the constant repetition with the paperwork/MG process so bleedin tiresome, you just end up repeating yourself over and over again when the information is already there to be read.,

Add in alot of exhibits, some of which may need scientific analysis or another suspect or CCTV footage that needs reviewing with a ROTI and you've got yourself ALOT to get through.

Up until recently beats used to take on more or less everything bar the most serious of offences which went over to CID.

Around six months ago the CID investigation standards was widened meaning they are now taking on more types of jobs, before that I found myself investigating:

Sexual Assaults, Burglaries, Railway Obstruction and on one occassion a GBH (dropped to an ABH in the end.)

Now CID are taking more on (I actually think too much at times, lock ups i've had have been pilfered and gone upstairs because there is a detection in it, if there is no 'body' in the job then they leave it for us until of course we arrest someone ) which in my mind is alot better - before that you used to get the file done and the bloke charged but CPS would want more and more for court.

And yes it is pants that you have to re-do your probabtion.

I can understand to a degree why MDP & CNC have to re-do their probations, from how I understand it their forces have very little dealings with the public and dont actually investigate that much nor make that many arrests a year (I think someone posted up CNC only made 12 arrests in the entire force one year.) For BTP though we lock up on a regular baisis and conduct our own investigations, to the same level as some HO forces.

Edited by Radman, 19 February 2012 - 07:38 PM.

[stamp monkey]

It seem's London parks police will be no more after councils are looking at taking up the BOGOF from the Mayor of London.

For every Officer the Council pays for the Mayor will give one free due to a 42 million pound reserve he has, I feel the parks will suffer as the MPS will not patrol parks correctly.

I have read through this post over the past few days and would like to add my comments, for what they are worth.

I believe that it is a truly sad indictment of the state of affairs when a professional and dedicated group of people (who just happen to be Park Constables) are cast aside with little or no thought to the value they provide. When they are gone, they are GONE

Too many people seem to be hung up on the semantics of this issue (Constable vs Police etc.) and not considering all the hard work put in by those individuals affected by this short sighted approach taken by Wandsworth Council (and others it must be said). It would appear that Met' PLC (insert any other H/O force here) was so concerned about whether they could; that they didn't stop to thiink if they should?

The best of British to all Park CONSTABLES everywhere. I never worked for you but I would have been PROUD to work with you..

Peace. Out!!

Edited by stamp monkey, 19 February 2012 - 08:11 PM.

[Gallifrey]

With regards to HO training and holding HO certificates. Most of our OST trainers are civvies and they hold HO OST certificates, doesn't make them holders of the office of constable though.

Really I've never had a trainer for OST who wasn't a police officer

[stamp monkey]

Really I've never had a trainer for OST who wasn't a police officer

We had one at Tadworth in 2006. Lovely girl she was (hope she's still in the role after the Tadworth debacle)

[MerseyLLB]

We had one at Tadworth in 2006. Lovely girl she was (hope she's still in the role after the Tadworth debacle)

If its who I think it is she got binned.

[mdon]

Really I've never had a trainer for OST who wasn't a police officer

I've served in two forces and both forces PTI's have been civvies.

[Gallifrey]

I've served in two forces and both forces PTI's have been civvies.

That may be so but as Borough Trainer is a Met Officer, the same as me I'm a bit suprised he mentioned Civvie trainers for OST, I've never met one yet.

Back on topic though, I am disgusted how the officers from Wndsworth Parks Police have been treated and I would suspect that, given a year to two years, the council will be regretting their decision

Edited by Gallifrey, 20 February 2012 - 04:47 AM.

[boroughtrainer]

That may be so but as Borough Trainer is a Met Officer, the same as me I'm a bit suprised he mentioned Civvie trainers for OST, I've never met one yet.

Back on topic though, I am disgusted how the officers from Wndsworth Parks Police have been treated and I would suspect that, given a year to two years, the council will be regretting their decision

All but one of my PTI/OST instructors at Hendon were Police civillian staff, and mostly ex armed forces PIT's.

On another note My car course instructor was a civvie, as was my solo course instructor.
As for Wandsworth Council regretting it after a few years. I don't think they will, they will no longer be liable for anything that occurs in the park.

[Headset57]

I was in the office talking to my old team from H&F Parks and they are merging with K&C Parks and downsizing

[Wing3q]

Its a great shame that WPP are disbanding no matter what people say or think they are part of the extended family- Thats a new one on me about K&C and H&F but having met officers from both forces I was impressed by the operation and hope they go from strength to strength.

[stamp monkey]

So, any news on what has happened to the service that the public are now recieving in place of a dedicated team of specialists?

Moreover, what has happened to our colleagues from Wandsworth Parks

Edited by stamp monkey, 27 March 2012 - 06:01 PM.