50 replies to this topic

[Heimdall]

This is purely a hypothetical question.

If a serviceman (or woman, or civillian subject to military law) was to commit a crime off-base in England & Wales (say theft, burgalry, ABH) and was arrested during or immediately after by the local police, could the relevant service police rock up and take the DP and have it tried at a courts martial?

Is there any recorded precedence of this?

I'm quite happy to PM the reason I ask to anyone who isn't just scoffing or stirring.

And no, this is not happening to me, 'my mate' or anyone I know.

[Bart S]

In a word - no. Service police could arrest the serviceman, however, in UK, civi police retain prime jurisdiction in all cases. The police will deal and charge the said military scrote and the beauty is, he'll also get done by the military for getting a civilian conviction. Everyone's a winner (except the scrote. )

[Heimdall]

That is exactly the sort of definitive answer I wanted.

Thank you very much for your help.

[Bart S]

Provided it's not heavy duty, some of the time, civi police will hand the scrote over to the service police for them to deal, as they know the punishments handed out by the military are far more substantial than the penalties handed out by mags court and it's less paperwork for them.

Edited by The Highway Man, 05 March 2011 - 06:30 PM.

[callsign-kid]

In a word - no. Service police could arrest the serviceman, however, in UK, civi police retain prime jurisdiction in all cases. The police will deal and charge the said military scrote and the beauty is, he'll also get done by the military for getting a civilian conviction. Everyone's a winner (except the scrote. )

Good reply. Just something I'm wondering if you know. Do the RMP then deal with him and by what means? Or will he be disciplined with in his own regiment?

[Bart S]

It would normally be dealt with under Queens Regs and he would be dealt with internally by the Regiment.

[giddens]

Also worth noting, UK servicemen/women remain subject not only to Military Law, but also UK Criminal and Civil Law no matter the location they happen to serve, including overseas.

[Bart S]

Exactly, which is why any squaddies I nicked in Germany were dealt with under PACE

[Headset57]

i've had a sailor taken in by RMP for being AWOL and always give RMP a call to check Redcaps for any stops i do...

[funkywingnut]

This is purely a hypothetical question.

If a serviceman (or woman, or civillian subject to military law) was to commit a crime off-base in England & Wales (say theft, burgalry, ABH) and was arrested during or immediately after by the local police, could the relevant service police rock up and take the DP and have it tried at a courts martial?

Is there any recorded precedence of this?

I'm quite happy to PM the reason I ask to anyone who isn't just scoffing or stirring.

And no, this is not happening to me, 'my mate' or anyone I know.

As the Highway man says, all offences Military or otherwise all get added to PNC now by the Service Police so there is no escape, as a young man found out the other day when he was stopped and lied about his convictions to the PC.

Civillian Police do sometimes hand over jobs to us but it depends on the nature of the offence. Dependent on the offence (and the persons wish) the offence may be heard by his CO.

Most of the time we prosecute under civilian Law, which is also contrary to AFA 06. The Armed Forces Act 06 removed any bar on what we can prosecute so we do not have to hand anything over to the local Force as we used to. So Primacy could be argued, but that would be at the top level.


Alwys worth calling a Service Police establishment if you pick up a serviceman never know what extra info you can get.

Edited by funkywingnut, 06 March 2011 - 08:46 PM.

[MerseyLLB]

Additionally there is already an agreement that Service Police take over serviceman nicked for drunkeness offences

[Bart S]

I used to love nicking squaddies for drunkenness. After giving them the caution, on the way back to the guardroom, if they'd failed the attitude test, i'd ask them what their officer commanding would say if they saw them in their drunken state? This would be replied to with a foul mouthed tirade describing in no uncertain terms what they thought of the OC. All this would go in my statement which the OC would read whilst charging the soldier. This was followed with an increased sentence, instead of say a £50 fine, it was replaced with 28 days in the guardroom cells with no pay.

Edited by The Highway Man, 06 March 2011 - 11:34 PM.

[Headset57]

As the Highway man says, all offences Military or otherwise all get added to PNC now by the Service Police so there is no escape, as a young man found out the other day when he was stopped and lied about his convictions to the PC.

Civillian Police do sometimes hand over jobs to us but it depends on the nature of the offence. Dependent on the offence (and the persons wish) the offence may be heard by his CO.

Most of the time we prosecute under civilian Law, which is also contrary to AFA 06. The Armed Forces Act 06 removed any bar on what we can prosecute so we do not have to hand anything over to the local Force as we used to. So Primacy could be argued, but that would be at the top level.


Alwys worth calling a Service Police establishment if you pick up a serviceman never know what extra info you can get.

As the Highway man says, all offences Military or otherwise all get added to PNC now by the Service Police so there is no escape, as a young man found out the other day when he was stopped and lied about his convictions to the PC.

Civillian Police do sometimes hand over jobs to us but it depends on the nature of the offence. Dependent on the offence (and the persons wish) the offence may be heard by his CO.

Most of the time we prosecute under civilian Law, which is also contrary to AFA 06. The Armed Forces Act 06 removed any bar on what we can prosecute so we do not have to hand anything over to the local Force as we used to. So Primacy could be argued, but that would be at the top level.


Alwys worth calling a Service Police establishment if you pick up a serviceman never know what extra info you can get.

i agree, i had a TA guy do a runner with kit and RMP had a locate trace on him, so they went round with MDP and did a S.18 on his new place!.

[Pebblechimp]

Had experience of this (not being stuck on, but being the Zob having to deal with one of his lads getting nicked). Normal Saturday night offence S.5 Public Order.

Awoken at 0330 on a Saturday morning by Suffolks finest as the Gnr that had been nicked gave my duty phone as the number for the Orderly Officer/guard room. RAFP resfused to go get him, so he was left on his own to consider his actions in the cells at BSE nick over night. (I wasnt going to get him, mainly as I knew the paperwork generated by me knowing now was going to take the best part of my Sunday). Think the Sgt just wanted the space in his cells.

Gnr was released bright and blurry eyed on the Sunday morning

Morning morning had the normal queue outside my "Boss,I got done for this that and the other etc etc".

In my old world there are two ways to deal with it (RAF)

1 - Depending on the nature of the offence the OC can deal with it (Minor Admin Action which entails extra duties, defaulters parades or just general gash jobs).

2 - If the OC isnt comfortable and normally if the offence has attracted civvy Old Bill attention is flagged up to P1 who deal with discipline issues and they issue appropriate advice to the OC.

From my experience, Suffolk given the number of military establishments are fairly switched on as they understand what a knock on effect a civvy caution or charge can have on a young persons forces career, thats not to say if Pvt,Sailor or SAC Jones gives it large when he/she is lifted then they should be treated with kid gloves.

[Giraffe]

A few years ago a regimental policeman showed me the cells that they use (which were almost the same as the ones we use). He told me that if they get someone in who's being drunk and abusive then every fifteen minutes throughout the night they'll bang the shutter open and shut repeatedly, just to teach them a lesson not to be difficult with them again!

[CmdKeen]

Exactly, which is why any squaddies I nicked in Germany were dealt with under PACE

Which is a major PITA in Scotland where the forces police are barely allowed to take a statement for anything that doesn't involve a member of the forces on base, everything else having to be kicked over to civ plod for handling.

[funkywingnut]

Which is a major PITA in Scotland where the forces police are barely allowed to take a statement for anything that doesn't involve a member of the forces on base, everything else having to be kicked over to civ plod for handling.

I dont understand what that means?

[Bart S]

I've nicked a squaddie in Edinburgh. He was arrested using PACE, jailed in a military cell and charged and dealt with under Queens Regs and PACE throughout the whole proceedings in Scotland.

[funkywingnut]

I've nicked a squaddie in Edinburgh. He was arrested using PACE, jailed in a military cell and charged and dealt with under Queens Regs and PACE throughout the whole proceedings in Scotland.

Yep me too.

Military personnel are beholden to English Law no matter where in the world they are and always dealt with in accordance with PACE.

[DC]

As the Highway man says, all offences Military or otherwise all get added to PNC now by the Service Police so there is no escape, as a young man found out the other day when he was stopped and lied about his convictions to the PC.

Only recordable service offences are added to the PNC.

[funkywingnut]

Only recordable service offences are added to the PNC.

Depends on the mood at the Service Police Crime Bureau, most offences go on even if they show up as 'Non disclosable'.

[Taffy]

As an aside to this, can civvy police nick for being AWOL or other general service offences? And how would it go with regards to charging and court?

[Bart S]

Generally, civpol would lift on the request of service police and detain them to be collected by the military to be dealt with. I was responsible for locating and arresting absent soldiers in the north west in the early 90s. As a matter of courtesy, I used to inform the local civpol station that I was working in the area and if they had a spare officer, they used to accompany me to deal with any stroppy civvies that tried to prevent my arrest.

[funkywingnut]

As an aside to this, can civvy police nick for being AWOL or other general service offences? And how would it go with regards to charging and court?

AWOL gets put on PNC and the individual is usually lifted by Civ Pol as already stated. Its the Units responsibilities to collect the AWOL Service Person, not the Service Police.

[Bart S]

That's what I meant to say. AWOL soldiers were put on PNC by CCRIO RMP. We used to fax a current list of absentees to the local station to pass amongst the officers whose beats covered the home addresses.