122 replies to this topic

[carty23]

And this is the exact point. Until Police Cadets follow a nationalised route of training like PCs receive (I don't mean in content, I mean simply every cadet unit from every police service doing the same things) then it will be easy to say whether or not they should have an 'easy' way into the police.

Still, my answer is no, they shouldn't. There have been a variety of arguments in the past why cadets should have an 'easier' way in, and the 2 that seem to pop up the most is 1) Dealing with people when attending events and 2) Learning aspects of law.

For number 1, Although the amounts of events cadets attend will differ greatly, I still don't think it's the best sort of experience you can get dealing with people. And the likelihood is is that PCs/SCs/PCSOs will be present for nearly all the events cadets are present at, therefore they will handle things if anything 'gets out of hand'. I have got more experience dealing with the public in my weekend job than I had done in the cadets (although my time in was relatively short). Yes, the cadets in my service area got given front office duties to do, but once again this was always shadowed by either a) a police officer or b) a front desk worker. The best way I've gained experience is particularly on a Sunday in my weekend job, when there are no managers in (just a supervisor) and no security, and a majority of times I've had to deal with things myself whether it be a) a customer who is irate over the service they have received from another member of staff or b) A drunk person who has been refused alcohol and has 'kicked off' and you've got to defuse it yourself because there is no one else to turn to. Granted, I was a bit timid when I first started after coming fresh out of school and not having no one else shouting at me other than a teacher, but dealing with such events certainly gave me a confidence boost and developed my communication skills massively. Now, if the above situation happened to me while I was in the cadets, an officer who was also in attendance at the event would have more than likely stepped in to try and calm it down, and therefore you've lost the chance to diffuse the situation yourself. I don't think cadets experience should be favoured more than someone who hasn't been a cadet, because like the above has shown, I got more out of my weekend job in terms of 'life experience' than I did from the cadets, and that's why my job, my college life and my social life will be the examples I will be using for the core competencies, not the cadets. I'm not saying that you have to work in a shop and calm aggressive people down while remaining calm to have life experience either, because this is only a tiny aspect of experience. But, certainly a role where you are dealing with people will provide a lot of experience.

The 2nd popular argument why cadets should have an 'easier' way in is that aspects of law are covered. So? I can buy a blackstone's police manual book or read up on the most common types of offences to prep me for the training I will be about to be receiving. It’s not solely available just to cadets.

Finally, I think recruitment standards (Certainly for the specials) are already low as it is. Many base their recruitment upon the application form, PIRT and interview. There are no role plays involved like there are for the regulars for a lot of police services. Some specials don’t even have a fitness test! Therefore, I am not saying it’s easy to get into the specials, because that would be the biggest load of tosh I’ve ever come out with, having not yet gone through the recruitment process, but it’s certainly more relaxed than regular recruitment. So to make it even ‘easier’ for the cadets to get into, I think is a big no. Besides, the likelihood is that a lot of cadet services will have mock interview and role play practice (I think a cadet member from the MET mentioned this), so isn’t this advantageous enough against other candidates who haven’t had this opportunity? Or those who want to have the opportunity but cannot practice before hand because they don’t have to money to complete an Into blues course or whatever they are called? Cadets may also receive inside knowledge from officers already serving, which once again, is an advantage over those who haven’t received such information.

Things should be kept the current way they are to be fair. The set standards are there for a reason.

[okeeg001]

And this is the exact point. Until Police Cadets follow a nationalised route of training like PCs receive (I don't mean in content, I mean simply every cadet unit from every police service doing the same things) then it will be easy to say whether or not they should have an 'easy' way into the police.

Still, my answer is no, they shouldn't. There have been a variety of arguments in the past why cadets should have an 'easier' way in, and the 2 that seem to pop up the most is 1) Dealing with people when attending events and 2) Learning aspects of law.

For number 1, Although the amounts of events cadets attend will differ greatly, I still don't think it's the best sort of experience you can get dealing with people. And the likelihood is is that PCs/SCs/PCSOs will be present for nearly all the events cadets are present at, therefore they will handle things if anything 'gets out of hand'. I have got more experience dealing with the public in my weekend job than I had done in the cadets (although my time in was relatively short). Yes, the cadets in my service area got given front office duties to do, but once again this was always shadowed by either a) a police officer or b) a front desk worker. The best way I've gained experience is particularly on a Sunday in my weekend job, when there are no managers in (just a supervisor) and no security, and a majority of times I've had to deal with things myself whether it be a) a customer who is irate over the service they have received from another member of staff or b) A drunk person who has been refused alcohol and has 'kicked off' and you've got to defuse it yourself because there is no one else to turn to. Granted, I was a bit timid when I first started after coming fresh out of school and not having no one else shouting at me other than a teacher, but dealing with such events certainly gave me a confidence boost and developed my communication skills massively. Now, if the above situation happened to me while I was in the cadets, an officer who was also in attendance at the event would have more than likely stepped in to try and calm it down, and therefore you've lost the chance to diffuse the situation yourself. I don't think cadets experience should be favoured more than someone who hasn't been a cadet, because like the above has shown, I got more out of my weekend job in terms of 'life experience' than I did from the cadets, and that's why my job, my college life and my social life will be the examples I will be using for the core competencies, not the cadets. I'm not saying that you have to work in a shop and calm aggressive people down while remaining calm to have life experience either, because this is only a tiny aspect of experience. But, certainly a role where you are dealing with people will provide a lot of experience.

The 2nd popular argument why cadets should have an 'easier' way in is that aspects of law are covered. So? I can buy a blackstone's police manual book or read up on the most common types of offences to prep me for the training I will be about to be receiving. It's not solely available just to cadets.

Finally, I think recruitment standards (Certainly for the specials) are already low as it is. Many base their recruitment upon the application form, PIRT and interview. There are no role plays involved like there are for the regulars for a lot of police services. Some specials don't even have a fitness test! Therefore, I am not saying it's easy to get into the specials, because that would be the biggest load of tosh I've ever come out with, having not yet gone through the recruitment process, but it's certainly more relaxed than regular recruitment. So to make it even 'easier' for the cadets to get into, I think is a big no. Besides, the likelihood is that a lot of cadet services will have mock interview and role play practice (I think a cadet member from the MET mentioned this), so isn't this advantageous enough against other candidates who haven't had this opportunity? Or those who want to have the opportunity but cannot practice before hand because they don't have to money to complete an Into blues course or whatever they are called? Cadets may also receive inside knowledge from officers already serving, which once again, is an advantage over those who haven't received such information.

Things should be kept the current way they are to be fair. The set standards are there for a reason.

Whilst I disagree with what you have written, this post is definitely a plus 1! Very well written. I think that it varies from force to force, in Sussex as a Cadet in the Front Office I'm allowed to work independently. Dealing with the public, taking reports along with most of the same stuff the front office staff do, this said I've worked extremely hard to allow this. At first I was supervised and mentored, rightly so, but I worked hard and my commitment shined thus being nominated for many awards. Obviously not all cadets are like this and it would be wrong to generalise for either side of the debate.

As for the issue regarding Cadets having an "easier" or an advantaged progression (not a way in but a progression) into the Special Constabulary, it is something I believe with a passion (ONLY for those deemed competent and committed). For the past 6-8 months or so I've been working with my MP on this issue, and he is really in favor of this. We've gone to the top about it, he's spoken to Nick Herbert MP the Minister for Policing and Theresa May the Home Secretary who were in favour of exploring the idea on the grounds of the big society. They both went to the CEO of the National Police Improvement Agency who didn't take it any future, but my MP is still talking to the Policing Minister about it as neither of them were happy with the CEOs decision, as with anything in politics this takes time.

So a few months ago I emailed my Chief Constable with the proposal and the Assistant Chief Constable in charge of the Cadets and Special replied to me...

I have a great deal of sympathy with the points you raise and I am also aware that there is a gap in the age you have to leave the cadets and the age you can join as a Special... I also recognisethat we want to get the best people in to the role of Special Constable and placing a weighting on people who are known to us, for example those who have been cadets does have considerable merit.

He passed this on to a Senior Officer who was conducting a reviews of the Special Constable Policy at the time, and a SC wrote to me about this as well. The Snr officer emailed me a few weeks ago saying that he has now finished the draft of the review which he said

the policy has several recommendations in the paper and one these looks at the access to the Special Constabulary for those serving or having previously served as a Police Cadet. There are a number of options which I hope reflect the commitment that you and your colleagues have shown the service and local community during your time within the cadets.

Edited by okeeg001, 28 February 2011 - 07:29 PM.
grammar and the like

[BenBen]

in fairness its not exactly hard to join the special constabulary at the moment. It seems to in the Met you could be a serial killer and still be in with a chance they've dropped recruitment standards that much.

[carty23]

Whilst I disagree with what you have written, this post is definitely a plus 1! Very well written. I think that it varies from force to force, in Sussex as a Cadet in the Front Office I'm allowed to work independently. Dealing with the public, taking reports along with most of the same stuff the front office staff do, this said I've worked extremely hard to allow this. At first I was supervised and mentored, rightly so, but I worked hard and my commitment shined thus being nominated for many awards. Obviously not all cadets are like this and it would be wrong to generalise for either side of the debate.

As for the issue regarding Cadets having an "easier" or an advantaged progression (not a way in but a progression) into the Special Constabulary, it is something I believe with a passion (ONLY for those deemed competent and committed). For the past 6-8 months or so I've been working with my MP on this issue, and he is really in favor of this. We've gone to the top about it, he's spoken to Nick Herbert MP the Minister for Policing and Theresa May the Home Secretary who were in favour of exploring the idea on the grounds of the big society. They both went to the CEO of the National Police Improvement Agency who didn't take it any future, but my MP is still talking to the Policing Minister about it as neither of them were happy with the CEOs decision, as with anything in politics this takes time.

So a few months ago I emailed my Chief Constable with the proposal and the Assistant Chief Constable in charge of the Cadets and Special replied to me...



He passed this on to a Senior Officer who was conducting a reviews of the Special Constable Policy at the time, and a SC wrote to me about this as well. The Snr officer emailed me a few weeks ago saying that he has now finished the draft of the review which he said

A +1 for you too mate! Like I said, it's hard to generalise for every police service because I simply do not know what every police service cadets do and how they do it. It's great to see the steps you have taken to get your point across and I think it's excellent what you are doing, and I hope something is set in stone eventually for Sussex at least! That said, I think others need to change if they wish to have a more lenient route into the specials, so until then, I'm all for the same standards for everyone. Obviously, Sussex is a bit of an exception due to the independence of the cadets as well as the fact that your proposal has been met with positive replies from the CC and local MP.

Best of luck

in fairness its not exactly hard to join the special constabulary at the moment. It seems to in the Met you could be a serial killer and still be in with a chance they've dropped recruitment standards that much.

Just out of interest, what is the Met's recruitment process?

[David]

Can I say, what some cracking posts I've seen in the Cadets section over the years, and further, what a fantastic debate in this thread so far?

I don't want to sound patronising or anything - that's the furthest thing from my mind - but, those who have contributed in such a brilliant manner are a credit to your generation, your parents and your respective Forces and groups. Well done.

[okeeg001]

A +1 for you too mate! Like I said, it's hard to generalise for every police service because I simply do not know what every police service cadets do and how they do it. It's great to see the steps you have taken to get your point across and I think it's excellent what you are doing, and I hope something is set in stone eventually for Sussex at least! That said, I think others need to change if they wish to have a more lenient route into the specials, so until then, I'm all for the same standards for everyone. Obviously, Sussex is a bit of an exception due to the independence of the cadets as well as the fact that your proposal has been met with positive replies from the CC and local MP.

Best of luck



Just out of interest, what is the Met's recruitment process?

Thank you I totally agree every force is different to each other, that said every unit. I can only speak for the North of Sussex but from what I've seen from the other units in Sussex at Annual Parade etc we're rather similar. I think that to get into a Cadet unit now is rather hard in itself thus I've taken every opportunity to get the experience out of it, and I've loved it. Not every Cadet in my unit is the same, but there are some and especially my former Cdt Sgt was like me. He put alot into the Cadets and he got alot out of it, someone like him with his knowledge really would be a credit to the specials.

I'll keep you all updated of how Sussex do with the Cadets to SC thing and indeed with the MP side of things, I've got work experience with him in a few months so I'll try and push it abit more.

Can I say, what some cracking posts I've seen in the Cadets section over the years, and further, what a fantastic debate in this thread so far?

I don't want to sound patronising or anything - that's the furthest thing from my mind - but, those who have contributed in such a brilliant manner are a credit to your generation, your parents and your respective Forces and groups. Well done.

Thank you! Have to say this is a brilliant thread and it's been enjoyable to read

[carty23]

Can I say, what some cracking posts I've seen in the Cadets section over the years, and further, what a fantastic debate in this thread so far?

I don't want to sound patronising or anything - that's the furthest thing from my mind - but, those who have contributed in such a brilliant manner are a credit to your generation, your parents and your respective Forces and groups. Well done.

Thanks David

It's a shame we don't have more frequent visitors to the cadet section participating.

Thank you I totally agree every force is different to each other, that said every unit. I can only speak for the North of Sussex but from what I've seen from the other units in Sussex at Annual Parade etc we're rather similar. I think that to get into a Cadet unit now is rather hard in itself thus I've taken every opportunity to get the experience out of it, and I've loved it. Not every Cadet in my unit is the same, but there are some and especially my former Cdt Sgt was like me. He put alot into the Cadets and he got alot out of it, someone like him with his knowledge really would be a credit to the specials.

I'll keep you all updated of how Sussex do with the Cadets to SC thing and indeed with the MP side of things, I've got work experience with him in a few months so I'll try and push it abit more.

Indeed. For Merseyside, the content of the cadet evenings is also different from BCU to BCU. The BCU I was a cadet at did a fitness session every other week, for example, whereas the neighbouring BCU didn't. Although Merseyside's scheme is currently under a review and I think they are going to run applications centrally online eventually and each BCU will follow the same course of events/training. There are so many variations up and down the country in terms of what cadets do, which I suppose is a great thing because consequently the cadets will have different skills and abilities, but if posed the question of the title of this thread: "Should cadets have an easier way into the police?" then I think there should be some sort of systematic selection such as, say, has had x amount of years as a cadet (bit hard for Merseyside seeing as it's only for 16-18!), has committed x amount of hours to non-mandatory events etc rather than just randomly selecting people.

Which leads me on to the next thing which you mentioned in your post. You get out what you put in. There are bound to be some cadets that just do the bare minimum by attending the required times when meetings take place. But on the other hand, there will be cadets like you who put in a lot of extra hours by attending non-mandatory events, working on the front office etc. This should be rewarded, and maybe one way of rewarding such cadets is to help them progress into the specials.

But the key question remains, how? For example, Merseyside's current recruitment process for specials is: Application, PIRT, Interview. What can be changed to this to make a more lenient transition from cadet to specials? I don't think scrapping the interview is feasible, because providing someone's vetting comes back clean, and they have basic numeracy and literacy skills, then they are in (for Merseyside). But the chance of assessing whether or not the cadets have the skills/abilities required to be a special is gone. Oh, I also forgot the medical. This obviously isn't going to go either.

[BenBen]

Just out of interest, what is the Met's recruitment process?

application form, "assessment centre", fitness/medical vetting.

Basically the met have been very vocal about needing specials for the olympics. they're advertising everywhere, train station, buses, radio, billboards.
Not sure what the form entails, can't imagine it be the same as regulars.
then comes the assessment. No role plays at all, they got rid of them and a simplified interview. And if you fail you can retake it, all this means, very few people fail.
the fitness test is easy enough as it is.
and as for vetting, theres loads of stuff I've heard, but I won't go into it.

[okeeg001]

Sussex is (to my knowledge) Paper-sift, PIRT, Interview, Medical, Vetting. No fitness test in Sussex.

[BenBen]

For what specials?

[carty23]

For what specials?

Yep.

[BenBen]

Dear me.

[BristolSam]

In fairness I'd be surprised if there are many people with a BMI under 30 who couldn't pass the fitness test, from what I've heard it's hardly strenuous.

[carty23]

In fairness I'd be surprised if there are many people with a BMI under 30 who couldn't pass the fitness test, from what I've heard it's hardly strenuous.

Too true.

I think E&W should adopt the Scottish fitness tests. But that's for another thread

[Nozza]

I'm going to say no to police cadets been given an easier route into the police. Everyone else for regs, specials and pcso's have gone through similar process to get where they are today, sure on this basis then us specials you get into the regs automatically?

I see the points raised about being at certain events, i would not call this policing, as much as you are there as Police Cadets, this is not a confrontational role and to me is like a lesser version of a PCSO. You would not be exposed to risk or harm like others in the police family would and are. We should all start at the same level with going through all the process, regardless of where we all are.

What about forces that do not run a Police Cadet scheme? To an extent they would be detrimented to a degree if cadets from other forces were allowed to progress straight onto a SC or PC.

[Obain]

application form, "assessment centre", fitness/medical vetting.

Basically the met have been very vocal about needing specials for the olympics. they're advertising everywhere, train station, buses, radio, billboards.
Not sure what the form entails, can't imagine it be the same as regulars.
then comes the assessment. No role plays at all, they got rid of them and a simplified interview. And if you fail you can retake it, all this means, very few people fail.
the fitness test is easy enough as it is.
and as for vetting, theres loads of stuff I've heard, but I won't go into it.

To be honest I think the 'real' assessment starts when you join your station. The totally useless ones either fail training or are never heard from again.

[Ben.]

I agree with some comments above and also SpecialIT thoughts. To confirm, this is what I think:

a) I strongly feel that Special Constables should not have to apply, be assessed and go through a number of pointless stages to become a Police Constable. I feel that it should be an internal review and interview process. An outline is as follows;

Stage 1: Internal application and covering statement to your Inspector, which has been supported and endorsed by your Sargent.

Stage 2: Application sift by the Inspection/Chief Inspector.

Stage 3: Interview with an application board.

Stage 4: Job offer.

b) Second priority should be given to all Police Cadets. The application and assessment process has to be the same for any external candidates, because SCs are warranted officers who have the core experiences and skills to become a trainee PC. But the Police Force should be reaching out to it's cadet force volunteers and making it a more streamlined process for the already enrolled Police Cadet Instructor.

c) Standard MoP application, how it is now.

[ds1989]

I agree with some comments above and also SpecialIT thoughts. To confirm, this is what I think:

a) I strongly feel that Special Constables should not have to apply, be assessed and go through a number of pointless stages to become a Police Constable. I feel that it should be an internal review and interview Confirmed
This post has been edited by Fry: Yesterday, 11:04 PM

Stage 2: Application sift by the Inspection/Chief Inspector.

Stage 3: Interview with an application board.


Stage 4: Job Confirmed

b) Second priority should be given to all Police Cadets. The application and assessment process has to be the same for any external candidates, because SCs are warranted officers who have the core experiences and skills to become a trainee PC. But the Police Force should be reaching out to it's cadet force volunteers and making it a more streamlined process for the already enrolled Police Cadet Instructor.

c) Standard MoP application, how it is now.

I agree, why is there a need to redo day 1 and 2 if you have already done them? So if you fail your day 1 or 2 when applying for a regular role your basically good enough to be an SC but not a regular even though the roles are the same and have both been entrusted with powers of arrest and other powers where the only difference is that one of them is voluntary, where as the recruitment should be run as Ben suggested.

Edited by ds1989, 08 April 2011 - 09:17 AM.

[tomspen]

I don't think so really. I can only speak from my experience when I was younger and used to be part of the Royal Marine cadets. Okay you may learn quite a lot about the force you're working under, but it doesn't mean you should get an easier way into it. Nor does it prepare you fully or properly for the job you're wanting to undertake. Reduced requirements or an easier route into the job may give a lot of people false confidence. All these things you say will give you an advantage if/when you come to train to be a police officer, but that does not mean you would be prepared for the real thing.

I think its fairer and easier for the police in general to keep the requirements the same, that way you can all start from new and they will have a clear idea of where you're at in terms of progress. In the same way I think it'd be ridiculous for the Royal Marines to accept Royal Marine Cadets with reduced requirements I think it would aslo be the same with the police.

Are you saying that the police should waste money on training us twice over when they could save money by giving us full training in the cadets and then allowing us an easier ride in the recruitment process - I'd be happy with ding the PIRT and final interview.

Even if you're right and it's the same level of training (which I doubt) and he is saying that they should be trained twice, it's still the proper thing to do. Okay so a few people have to do the training twice, but at least everyone who completes the training knows how to do it properly, hopefully confidently and safely. Instead of having some hodgepodge force that makes mistakes and puts lives at risk. I'm certain that the money spent training a few officers twice would amount to less than the costs if officers went out on duty and made mistakes. That would only result in people suing the police and the police finding it harder to enforce the law.

Edited by tomspen, 08 April 2011 - 09:23 AM.

[ds1989]

Very much agreed, I used to be a Sergeant in the Royal Marine Cadets as an instructor, and as Tom said, the recruiters will pass you if they feel that you have the mental and physical ability to do the job at hand, most cadets are taught in a health and safety friendly environment (quite hard doing a section attack with some having to stand behind you with a hi vis jacket on in the field)

[GolfNovember90]

i would say yes, should have more of a chance of passing the papersift, but then again i think SC's and PCSO's should have even more of a chance of passing the papersift

[MikeBrum]

I want to say, I retract my former statement in this thread!

[Simply Special]

I dont know if it has been changed but when i was a cadet in the MET.POL we were given our regs application early with the internal applicants. so at least we got something for our hard work