122 replies to this topic

[Mr Potato Head]

Police cadets come across many things normal police officers do whether it be when we are doing leaflet drops or policing events ourselves. We constantly interact with the public and at times have to deal with certain situations as if we were police officers like today for example. I was manning a footpath where members of the public were not allowed to walk through but some people tried and they failed, people either had to cross the road (through runners) or go through a park to reach thier destination. I came across a few men who were quite drunk and at first were abusive because I did not let them through. Eventually they calmed down, sat on a wall and watched the marathon with a few beers in hand. A few hours into the marathon I had to deal with an extremely rude gentleman who proceeded in ignoring me, the police tape and a police officer. He literally brushed passed me as if I was not even there - luckily the officer pulled him back up to the cordon and told him not to do what he did again.

At cadet meetings we regularly get involved in police workshops and learn information about counter terrorism, gang crime, and much, much more. At times I have been told operational information and come across some as well, which I'm expected to keep to myself and between the Sergeant. There are times when we go out with Police officers and they have thier radios on full blast so you can hear what is going on - the amount of stuff I hear is incredible. We also train and learn police powers as if we're doing an intensive course at Hendon and we regularly take part in various policing activities like events in the local area or city as well as crime prevention, door-to-door, leaflet drops and many other policing events.

My point being that police cadets should have an easier route into the police. No matter how cadets are 'dressed up' we still provide a a service on behalf of the police as volunteers. We still meet up at the station like police officers, we still have briefings like police officers, we still wear the same uniform as some police units and we still take part in policing events. We also spend many hours each week doing extra work with the community and even helping out down the station. We are trusted with keeping codes to the front gate and the inside of the station to ourselves and also not to mention anything about what we do if it has any operation information attached for obvious reasons.

Personally I feel proud to be a cadet as do many of my friends and we always talk about joining the force but get slightly disheartened when we have to go through the same process as people that are applying for thier first bit of police work. We basically cover everything in the recruitment process in role-plays, training and even the PIRT when we are asked to do some simple written reports , reading maps (grid references) and also act as if we were dealing with a real emergency.

I am a bit tired so that's why this is not structured that well - looking forward to a good debate with carty23

Edited by VPCMP, 25 April 2010 - 09:05 PM.

[Paradox]

This may sound a bit arrogant (but let me assure you it is not intended that way) but why would you expect Cadets to have an easier access into the regular police service when Specials still apply the same way as any other member of the public?

[Jon_b]

Personally, I couldn't agree with you more. I know in some places (Scotland I think?) they have Police Cadets, instead of Volunteer Cadets which are paid by the force and when their time as a Cadet is up, they go straight into being PC's!

By the way, well done for dealing with those people when you were manning the footpath

I also agree with the above post. I've always thought that after you commit a certain amount of hours as a Special you should automatically be given the opportunity to become a regular. Same with PCSO's too.

Edited by Jon_b, 25 April 2010 - 09:14 PM.

[okeeg001]

Brilliant post!

I too firmly believe (as I have informed you all) that IMO Cadets should have an easier route in applying to the Police. Whether that's to become a Reg, SC or PCSO. I'm not too sure on having an easier route into the regs, but into the Special Constabulary yes. As Cadet we regularly volunteer a number of hours a week but when we reach 18 we have to leave, therefore why not make it easier for us to keep on volunteering? We want to volunteer that's half the battle, we have the basic knowledge (some cadets more so), we have the experience so more importantly it's going to be cheaper in the long run. For my unit we're lucky as our supervisor works in the tutor unit. We always learn about the law, each week learning a new act and sections. Our procedure is vast, stop/search (how to conduct one, how to document it and how to input the data) and so much more. To me it really does make sense. It's just how do we put our views across?

This may sound a bit arrogant (but let me assure you it is not intended that way) but why would you expect Cadets to have an easier access into the regular police service when Specials still apply the same way as any other member of the public?

I agree. My support lies only with easier access to the special constabulary.

Edited by okeeg001, 25 April 2010 - 09:12 PM.

[Mr Potato Head]

This may sound a bit arrogant (but let me assure you it is not intended that way) but why would you expect Cadets to have an easier access into the regular police service when Specials still apply the same way as any other member of the public?

I actually think Specials should not have to go through the same old training, assessment centre, PIRT and interview because its a waste of time. This idea of mine was brought up in another thread due to police cuts in expenditure so while we're on this point I do think Specials should be trained in the areas they need to be and then placed back into thier boroughs as PC's. I don't see the benefits of training cadets and Specials and then having them go through the exact same things at the assessment centres which costs more money to run and fund.

Edited by VPCMP, 25 April 2010 - 09:12 PM.

[HarryB]

This may sound a bit arrogant (but let me assure you it is not intended that way) but why would you expect Cadets to have an easier access into the regular police service when Specials still apply the same way as any other member of the public?

I agree 100%, but with PCSOs also added. I think police cadets is a cracking idea, and it's good for all those who attend, but I'm not sure it's fair for them to have an advantage in the recruitment process, other than using their skills gained for compotency questions etc.

I may not grasp the role of police cadets, but certainly, my idea of the volunteer ones is they get very little actual policing experience, as it has more of a community focus, with less exposure to potentially violent situations than a PCSO, and substantially less than a PC/SC?

Just my thoughts..

*edit* I have no issues with a shorter/easier process to join as a SC or PCSO, but I feel Reg is too far.

Edited by HarryB, 25 April 2010 - 09:13 PM.

[Mr Potato Head]

I agree 100%, but with PCSOs also added. I think police cadets is a cracking idea, and it's good for all those who attend, but I'm not sure it's fair for them to have an advantage in the recruitment process, other than using their skills gained for compotency questions etc.

I may not grasp the role of police cadets, but certainly, my idea of the volunteer ones is they get very little actual policing experience, as it has more of a community focus, with less exposure to potentially violent situations than a PCSO, and substantially less than a PC/SC?

Just my thoughts..

We get told that we will never be exposed to potentially dangerous situations but if you seen the end of the marathon today (where we were) you would have wondered what was going on. People were literally having handbags over bottles of water that were not used and by this time most of the officers had moved on down the route. That situation could have easily escalated into a bigger thing - my unit will be policing a local event where thousands of people are expected to turn out - I wouldn't be surprised if something kicks of again (as it always does with this particular 'peoples day').

[okeeg001]

We get told that we will never be exposed to potentially dangerous situations but if you seen the end of the marathon today (where we were) you would have wondered what was going on. People were literally having handbags over bottles of water that were not used and by this time most of the officers had moved on down the route. That situation could have easily escalated into a bigger thing - my unit will be policing a local event where thousands of people are expected to turn out - I wouldn't be surprised if something kicks of again (as it always does with this particular 'peoples day').

Every time we are used operationally we are at risk, but we don't mind because all our cadets love what they do. I work the in Front Office and I'm verbally abused nearly every shift, only ever thought about using the panic bars once. But I absolutely LOVE doing it, because it's the experience and every now and again you'll deal with someone and they'll say thank you and really mean it. It's those moments that want me to go back for more. Recently in my town a body was found in a pond, and I worked the night shift in the Front Office and dealt with the family. Seeing another person cry is truely horrible and it was the first time I dealt with something like that, but I love the work i do. I think those Cadets who are competent, confident and passionate, they should be encouraged into the SC.

Edited by okeeg001, 25 April 2010 - 09:22 PM.

[carty23]

As you can probably guess, I think that cadets should go through the exact same process as external applicants.

If even specials or PCSO's can't have a more lenient route into the regulars (and there has been some discussions how forces have implemented schemes whereby the process is quicker/maybe easier for specials/PCSO's applying internally), it would be totally wrong if they give cadets an 'easier' way in.

I've come across far more difficult situations working in retail on a weekend than what I had as a cadet, which i'm sure will be more beneficial to me when I apply for the specials next year than my cadet experience would be. Obviously, this is my own personal situation, and will differ for other cadets.

I think the cadets is a great thing and I admire the young people who give up their time (and certainly to those who participate in extra activities that are not mandatory/part of the volunteer commitment), but I stand for cadets going through the same process.

Edited by carty23, 25 April 2010 - 09:47 PM.

[okeeg001]

As you can probably guess, I think that cadets should go through the exact same process as external applicants.

If even specials or PCSO's can't have a more lenient route into the regulars (and there has been some discussions how forces have implemented schemes whereby the process is quicker/maybe easier for specials/PCSO's applying internally), it would be totally wrong if they give cadets an 'easier' way in.

I've come across far more difficult situations working in retail on a weekend than what I had as a cadet, which i'm sure will be more beneficial to me when I apply for the specials next year than my cadet experience would be. Obviously, this is my own personal situation, and will differ for other cadets.

I think the cadets is a great thing and I admire the young people who give up their time (and certainly to those who participate in extra activities that are not mandatory/part of the volunteer commitment), but I stand for cadets going through the same process.

Can I ask your reasons why you think they shouldn't have a slightly easier route into the SC?

Edited by okeeg001, 25 April 2010 - 09:50 PM.

[Paradox]

Hmm...

I tend to agree with Carty on this one. Although keep in mind that (just like with Specials) the experience you gain as a Cadet may not directly help with your application, but if it gives you more experiences to draw upon in regards to interview and assessments then that should be in itself enough.

[GoAhead]

In a word, no.

If Police Staff, PCSO's and Specials who have knowledge and experience of operational policing don't have preference over non-police candidates, why should volunteer Cadets?

[okeeg001]

In a word, no.

If Police Staff, PCSO's and Specials who have knowledge and experience of operational policing don't have preference over non-police candidates, why should volunteer Cadets?

Because with 2012 most South East forces are going to want to have an increase in SC's, a cheaper way could be to use Cadets who are 18. I disagree with total fast-track, everyone should and must have to do PIRT, interviews, medical etc.

[carty23]

Can I ask your reasons why you think they shouldn't have a slightly easier route into the SC?

Even into the SC, I still think they should have to go through the same process.

I know some people usually make out that there is a big divide between a regular police officer and a special constable (and with variations with things like the amount of time spent on training, the various courses, the difference between doing it FT and PT etc, it's understandable why people have a perception of this "divide"), but at the end of the day, SC or regular, you are a police constable and members of the public will not care what you are, as long as you can deal with their problem. Thus you should have the skills/abilities required for the role, and not expect to have an even more 'easier' route into the specials when the entry profile is not that bad compared to the regulars.

The process into the specials is already lenient by means of not having competency questions on the initial application form (very force specific, but I imagine for the one's that don't have the questions, that many people would fail at this stage rather than continuing onto the interview and then failing), and the lack of interactive role plays.

And if it was made easier, I'm sure you can think of at least one person who would love to get their hands on the uniform and kit, and having an 'easier' way in would make him/her more happy than what they would be if they won the lotto.

Because with 2012 most South East forces are going to want to have an increase in SC's, a cheaper way could be to use Cadets who are 18. I disagree with total fast-track, everyone should and must have to do PIRT, interviews, medical etc.

So what part would you like to see 'easier'?

You missed the application form off, so do you think cadets should skip that stage and progress onto the PIRT/Interview?

Are we talking about making the process easier or quicker, here? As they are two different things.

[okeeg001]

Even into the SC, I still think they should have to go through the same process.

I know some people usually make out that there is a big divide between a regular police officer and a special constable (and with variations with things like the amount of time spent on training, the various courses, the difference between doing it FT and PT etc, it's understandable why people have a perception of this "divide"), but at the end of the day, SC or regular, you are a police constable and members of the public will not care what you are, as long as you can deal with their problem. Thus you should have the skills/abilities required for the role, and not expect to have an even more 'easier' route into the specials when the entry profile is not that bad compared to the regulars.

The process into the specials is already lenient by means of not having competency questions on the initial application form (very force specific, but I imagine for the one's that don't have the questions, that many people would fail at this stage rather than continuing onto the interview and then failing), and the lack of interactive role plays.

And if it was made easier, I'm sure you can think of at least one person who would love to get their hands on the uniform and kit, and having an 'easier' way in would make him/her more happy than what they would be if they won the lotto.



So what part would you like to see 'easier'?

You missed the application form off, so do you think cadets should skip that stage and progress onto the PIRT/Interview?

Are we talking about making the process easier or quicker, here? As they are two different things.

Okay seems fair enough. After reading what I've posted I think I need to make it clear that I feel the process should be quicker for Cadets. Does that seem fair?

[Hyde]

I do not think that there should be a fast-track route in to the Specials/PCSO/Reg for cadets. Surely a flaw would be that people would go in to the Cadets as it is a much faster, less competitive role and then attend cadets for a very short time (with no intention of staying) just until they get the application 'fast track' (as you propose) to Special/PCSO/Reg.

I had no priority over any other MoP when applying for the specials, i don't really see why cadets should either. You can use examples from cadets in interviews, though.. just like i used my previous jobs for my competency questions.

[Paradox]

I do not think that there should be a fast-track route in to the Specials/PCSO/Reg for cadets. Surely a flaw would be that people would go in to the Cadets as it is a much faster, less competitive role and then attend cadets for a very short time (with no intention of staying) just until they get the application 'fast track' (as you propose) to Special/PCSO/Reg.

Although perhaps this could make Cadets a more competitive role to get into. Which also wouldn't help anyone.

[Hyde]

Exactly. So if it isn't broken, don't fix it i say. Like you said Sooso, just being in the Cadet role can give invaluable experience when it comes to a separate application for another role within the police.

[Mr Potato Head]

Hmm...

I tend to agree with Carty on this one. Although keep in mind that (just like with Specials) the experience you gain as a Cadet may not directly help with your application, but if it gives you more experiences to draw upon in regards to interview and assessments then that should be in itself enough.

But why should we have to fill in application forms, go to the assessment centre and go over what we have already done as a cadet? It's just a waste of money to make us go through the same old process - some of which we do each week at cadet meetings. When I first joined I had to fill in an application form, have an interview and now I'm doing my level 1 training. The government want to save money in the public service sector and its a well known fact the police have been given a certain amount they need to save which means cutting police services. What is the point in making us go through the same process twice and wasting money?

I do not think that there should be a fast-track route in to the Specials/PCSO/Reg for cadets. Surely a flaw would be that people would go in to the Cadets as it is a much faster, less competitive role and then attend cadets for a very short time (with no intention of staying) just until they get the application 'fast track' (as you propose) to Special/PCSO/Reg.

I had no priority over any other MoP when applying for the specials, i don't really see why cadets should either. You can use examples from cadets in interviews, though.. just like i used my previous jobs for my competency questions.

Provisions could be made so that cadets would have be trained to a certain level, have been a member of the cadets for at least a year and they can do simple literature and arithmetic tasks. All of this is cost-effective as some cadet coordinators and volunteer staff don't actually get paid.

Although perhaps this could make Cadets a more competitive role to get into. Which also wouldn't help anyone.

I disagree, not many people know about the cadets including police officers at the station(s) I'm based at so I doubt we would see a surge of numbers for example, yesterday the code to the front gate was not working and an officer was waiting to go in. He asked me to ID up which I did and he was still questioning who I was even though my ID stated everything he needed to know. The dirty looks you get is pretty annoying too, especially when your not wearing uniform but that's another thing which I spoke to my Sergeant about - actually making officers aware we are around.

Edited by VPCMP, 26 April 2010 - 07:00 AM.

[Paradox]

I disagree, not many people know about the cadets including police officers at the station(s) I'm based at so I doubt we would see a surge of numbers...

Yes, but at the moment the Cadets are not a direct avenue into the police service. If that were to change then I believe that Cadet applications would rise substantially.

But why should we have to fill in application forms, go to the assessment centre and go over what we have already done as a cadet?

Because a person and their circumstances can and do change between those times and perhaps they would like to review how you are progressing as an individual rather than just letting your through on assumption alone.

[Mr Potato Head]

Yes, but at the moment the Cadets are not a direct avenue into the police service. If that were to change then I believe that Cadet applications would rise substantially.

I still disagree...Many people are under the impression it somehow gains you entry into the police service much quicker then if a member of the public applied. I doubt many kids know what they want to do as a career at the age of 14 or 15.

[Hyde]

Was the PIRT for cadets the same as Specials/Regs? Was the pass-mark the same?
I just believe that even if there was a fast track, you should not be permitted to skip the interview or application stage. Cadets is a civilian, non confrontational role (despite you helping out at the marathon) and just because you're cut out to do that, doesn't mean you automatically have the life experience/skills to become a Special or beyond

[Mr Potato Head]

Was the PIRT for cadets the same as Specials/Regs? Was the pass-mark the same?
I just believe that even if there was a fast track, you should not be permitted to skip the interview or application stage. Cadets is a civilian, non confrontational role (despite you helping out at the marathon) and just because you're cut out to do that, doesn't mean you automatically have the life experience/skills to become a Special or beyond

I'm not sure if cadets do, do the PIRT although that could be force specific. Like I said in a previous post we do a lot of events like the marathon each year and no, I'm not saying 'just because I done the marathon it gives me life experience' - but after I've policed more events and continued training then surely I will have enough skill and knowledge that other members of the public have not got.

The point I'm trying to make is that the police could save much more money by training cadets and giving the likes of Specials and us an easier route in. Why waste more money going over the same aspects of training when we've done it already?!

Edited by VPCMP, 26 April 2010 - 10:24 AM.

[Paradox]

The point I'm trying to make is that the police could save much more money by training cadets and giving the likes of Specials and us an easier route in. Why waste more money going over the same aspects of training when we've done it already?!

Again, please do excuse my ignorance, but what aspects of training are similar between Cadets and Regular police officers?

[Mr Potato Head]

Again, please do excuse my ignorance, but what aspects of training are similar between Cadets and Regular police officers?

Most parts actually. We learn about most aspects of criminal law and carry out role-plays to help us get into the mindset of being in that situation. We also do training on major incidents and I believe we do some riot training although I'm not sure if that's more of a fun activity as oppose to actually learning it. There are far too many things to list but recently our unit has been split into two groups, one group is doing level 1 training and the other is doing level 2...I'm sure as we progress more levels will be introduced. I don't think we cover everything a normal officer would do but we definitely cover most things.