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Batons for sale in the UK


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#1 KennethD

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 11:23 PM

I use the online Googlemail service, one thing they do is identify words used in your emails and then offer directed adverts.
As I had "police" in one of my emails I got an ad for an ASP extendible baton. It's a UK company, and it got me thinking who could they sell to in the UK ?
As I understand it's illegal for Joe Public to buy a baton, and officers aren't allowed to use a baton they've bought, so where's the UK customer ? :eek:

#2 freols

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 11:29 PM

I use the online Googlemail service, one thing they do is identify words used in your emails and then offer directed adverts.
As I had "police" in one of my emails I got an ad for an ASP extendible baton. It's a UK company, and it got me thinking who could they sell to in the UK ?
As I understand it's illegal for Joe Public to buy a baton, and officers aren't allowed to use a baton they've bought, so where's the UK customer ? :eek:


Authorised organisations such as the police can purchase them.

#3 KennethD

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 11:36 PM

Of course, but I wouldn't expect such companies to advertise on bog standard old Googlemail for business :eek: Wouldn't they target ads at the professional publications ?

#4 Ultra Vires

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:25 AM

Of course, but I wouldn't expect such companies to advertise on bog standard old Googlemail for business :eek: Wouldn't they target ads at the professional publications ?

The software they use, as you say, only matches key words to the mountains of data their bots trawl across the web.
You can buy an ASP or police marked items. But the retailer will require a collar number and station to send the items to. So it's really quite harmless.

At no point has anyone sat down and decided to advertise police equipment on their mail client. It's just happens to match a catalogue out there which allows Google bots to collate it :)

#5 ninetyone

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 04:32 PM

They'll just be textual ads, any company worth their salt with have a few for brand recognition as much as anything else. And most companies are now aware that it is totally illegal to sell batons to MOPs so they won't risk it.

#6 ForceHQ

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 11:59 PM

You can buy an ASP or police marked items.


So does that mean a serving officer has complete carte blanche on what style and make of baton they buy if there willing to pay? or is there a list they can chose from?

#7 Giraffe

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 06:09 AM

So does that mean a serving officer has complete carte blanche on what style and make of baton they buy if there willing to pay? or is there a list they can chose from?


In theory they could order one to be delivered to their nick, but in reality their force would take a very dim view of it if they did. There would also be zero chance of them being allowed to carry it unless it happened to be the same type of baton that their force issues anyway (and as such there would be no point in buying one).

#8 mdon

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 12:01 PM

It is not illegal to buy and own a baton, many years ago before I joined the specials I bought one from the internet it was just af riction lock but never the less a 26" teliscopic baton. it is illegal for a company to sell it to a MOP but it's not illegal on the MOP side of things as long as they don't take it out of their home.

#9 Giraffe

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 12:04 PM

It is not illegal to buy and own a baton, many years ago before I joined the specials I bought one from the internet it was just af riction lock but never the less a 26" teliscopic baton. it is illegal for a company to sell it to a MOP but it's not illegal on the MOP side of things as long as they don't take it out of their home.


I'm not familiar with the law surrounding the sale of batons, but assuming it is illegal as you say would the purchaser not be aiding and abetting an offence, and therefore be committing an offence anyway?

#10 cac2008

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 12:24 PM

I was under the impression that it was not illegal to purchase or possess in a private place, but if you were in possession of one in public then you have a made offensive weapon (unless it was stored in such a way where it wouldn't be readily accessible - giving reasonable excuse) (S1 Prevention of Crime Act)

#11 BestUserName

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 04:29 PM

I understand the law on batons changed in 2004 (6th June). I also understand it is not an offence to own a baton per se. However, if Joe Public had a baton about their person in a public place this would be an offence, ie: offensive weapon.

Section 141(1) Criminal Justice Act 1988

• any article to which this section applies - (Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988) :-

- knuckleduster, swordstick, belt buckle knife, handclaw, push dagger, hollow kubatan, footclaw, shuriken or death star, balisong or butterfly knife, telescopic truncheon, blowpipe, kusari gama, kyoketsu shoge, and kusari (ropes fastened to sickle, knife or weight) and a disguised knife (any knife which has a concealed blade or concealed sharp point and is designed to appear to be an everyday object of a kind commonly carried (eg : comb, brush, pen, lighter, key, lipstick or phone), [stealth knife and straight, side-handled or friction-lock baton] [06/06/2004]. Does not include antiques.

#12 KennethD

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 05:09 PM

Wasn't the law changed recently to make it illegal for unauthorised persons to buy these, even if they are kept at home ?

#13 Rocket

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 05:13 PM

Since when was it illegal to buy and posses a stick?

#14 Bill Gibbons

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 05:29 PM

I understand the law on batons changed in 2004 (6th June). I also understand it is not an offence to own a baton per se. However, if Joe Public had a baton about their person in a public place this would be an offence, ie: offensive weapon.

Section 141(1) Criminal Justice Act 1988

• any article to which this section applies - (Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988) :-

- knuckleduster, swordstick, belt buckle knife, handclaw, push dagger, hollow kubatan, footclaw, shuriken or death star, balisong or butterfly knife, telescopic truncheon, blowpipe, kusari gama, kyoketsu shoge, and kusari (ropes fastened to sickle, knife or weight) and a disguised knife (any knife which has a concealed blade or concealed sharp point and is designed to appear to be an everyday object of a kind commonly carried (eg : comb, brush, pen, lighter, key, lipstick or phone), [stealth knife and straight, side-handled or friction-lock baton] [06/06/2004]. Does not include antiques.


So almost every MoP in the UK is defenceless then? Even in their own homes? Here, we now carry collapsible batons (security) provided they are under 24 inches. Kevlar and handcuffs are also part of the scene too, but OC spray or pepper sprasy is still a prohibited weapon. yet we can carry bear spray (far more potent than O/C) for wildlife and aggressive dogs off the leash.

Going back to MoP's here. If someone breaks onto my house while I'm still in (a rare occurrence over here), but he is unarmed, I can use a measured amount of force to subdue him and put him in handcuffs. If he is armed with a knife or blunt instrument, I can use my son's baseball bat to stop him and then handcuff him. If he has a gun, I am justified in shooting him with my own handgun him before calling the police. It's force for force, a measured response. If, however, he is unarmed and I shoot him, then I'm off to prison for a stretch. however, I can hold him at gunpoint (without pulling the trigger) until the police arrive. But again, every situation is judged individually. I know someone here who had to shoot an unarmed man who broke into him home. Albeit, the perpetrator was a huge, hulking psycho with a history of horrific violence against MoP's, who escaped from a secure "hospital" (nut house) and attacked the home owner. The owner gut shot the perp and was arrested & charged. However, the judge threw out the charges as it was a case of justifiable self-defence. As for carring a weapon in public. Well, I can own a Swiss Army knife and not worry, as there is no law prohibiting me for carrying one around, even if it is hooked onto my trouser belt. If I have a US marine KABR combat knife with a six-inch serrated blade, it still not against the law - but I need to have a good excuse for walking around with it. If I don't the cops take it away but don't charge me with any offence.

Here's another one. A friend of mine (a licenced Private Investigator) had just finisherd his shift after a spot of executive protective duties, during which he was allowed to wear an internal protective vest, carry an baton and handcuffs. After picking up his wife on the way home, they stopped at Safways to do a bit of grocery shopping. The shop manager was engaged in a violent struggle with a shoplifter who was getting the better of the situation. Once the perp hit the manager over the head with a bottle, my mate stepped in, drew his baton and whacked the thief across the ribs, sending him crumpling to the floor. he then handcuffed the guy and administered First Aid to the manager until the police arrived. Was he arrested and charged with possessing an offensive weapon, assault, then carted off to the cells? Nope, he received a commendation from the Chief of Police for being an upstanding citizen and arresting a violent individual with a criminal record as long as the Old Kent Road. I can walk around all day with my stab proof vest, baton and hancuffs, provided I also have my badge and I.D. with me. Now, whilst I understand that Canada is not the UK, its not the USA either. Over here, there is a ban being introduced that will prohibit gang members and other criminals from owning or wearing kevlar vests. Only the police services and licenced security guards & private Investigators will be allowed to have them because of on the job risks. The only other exception to this will be made for private citizens who possess an ATC (Authorization to Carry) firearms licence, meaning that they are packing a shooter legally because their lives are in "imminent danger."

But while we can debate all this, it really should be right for any citizen (especially) in the UK to protect his/her home, property and family from a violent intruder. Why should not be a matter of debate? Granted, Candrman, you have a point and there are lots of weapons out there should be banned, no question. But when a national newspaper is waging a nation wide campaign to bring back the right for UK homeowners to have the right to defend their homes against intruders, then something is wrong.

See: http://www.telegraph...-intruders.html

Has the pendulum swung too far they otherway? Or is this just another publicity campaign?

#15 ninetyone

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 05:32 PM

This literally comes up once a week.

Simple possession of a baton in a private place is not an offence.

Anything else, such as simple possession in a public place or anything at all to do with supply, is an offence - either under PCA 1953 or CJA 1988.

#16 BestUserName

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 07:34 PM

Yes, it is an offence to carry a Baton in a public place without lawful judtification. A 'stick' is not a 'baton'...Statute law ie: Act of Parliament is very specific. Suggest you read posts before making (perceived) flippant comments.

#17 support

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 09:06 PM

Yes, it is an offence to carry a Baton in a public place without lawful judtification. A 'stick' is not a 'baton'...Statute law ie: Act of Parliament is very specific. Suggest you read posts before making (perceived) flippant comments.


The legal position is governed in advice to the police in Home Office Circular 034/2004 which amended the relevant regulations and prohibited the sale or batons, there is no exemption for the sale to individuals:

C.

Home Office circular 034 / 2004

Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) (Amendment) Order 2004

* Broad subject: Crime and Disorder
* Issue date: Fri Jun 04 00:00:00 BST 2004
* From: CRIME REDUCTION & COMMUNITY SAFETY GROUP Public Order and Crime Issues Unit
* Linked circulars: 113/1988

Copies sent to:
Clerks of Magistrates' Courts Committees ,HM Inspector of Constabulary ,Police Staff Associations ,The Chief Crown Prosecutor ,The Clerk to the Justices ,(England and Wales) ,Association of Chief Police Officers (England,Wales and Northern Ireland),Association of Police Authorities

* Sub category: Offensive Weapons
* Implementation date: Sat Jun 05 00:00:00 BST 2004
* For more info contact:
Jonathan Batt 020 7273 3885
* Addressed to:
Chief Officers of Police (England and Wales) Clerks to the Police Authorities

CRIMINAL JUSTICE ACT 1988 (OFFENSIVE WEAPONS) (AMENDMENT) ORDER 2004.
The Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons)(Amendment) Order 2004 (S.I.2004/1271) (“the Order”) will come into force on 5 June 2004. This circular draws attention to the provisions of the Order which has been made under the order-making powers in Section 141 (2) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988.

This Order has been introduced as a result of public safety concerns relating to the existence of stealth knives and truncheons. Stealth knives are non metallic hunting or stiletto knives, made of a range of materials, such as nylon zytel or high impact plastic. Although they look like conventional knives, they are difficult to detect by security apparatus. This measure aims to improve airline security.

Effect of the Order

2. The Order adds two new weapons, stealth knives and truncheons, to the list of weapons contained in the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988. The Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988 details the weapons to which Section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 applies. Consequently it is now an offence under section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988, for a person to manufacture, sell, import, hire, offer for sale or hire, expose or have in their possession for the purpose of sale or hire or lend or give to any other person a stealth knife or a truncheon. A person convicted under section 141 shall be liable on summary conviction to a maximum term of six months imprisonment and/or a fine not exceeding the sum of £5000 (level 5 on the standard scale). The Order applies to England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

3. It should be noted that the Order does not create an offence of simple possession of a stealth knife or truncheon. However the design and construction of stealth knives and truncheons is such that their possession in public, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, may be unlawful either under section 1(1) of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 or section 139 (1) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988.

4. Section 1(1) of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 makes it an offence for any person, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, to have an offensive weapon in a public place. An offensive weapon is defined in section 1(4) of that Act as, “any article made or adapted for use for causing injury to the person, or intended by the person having it with him for such use by him, or by some other person”. Section 139 (1) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 makes it an offence for a person to have with him in a public place, without good reason or lawful authority, any sharply pointed article or any article having a blade(folding pocket knives are excluded unless the cutting edge of the blade exceeds three inches (7.62 cms). In the case of DPP v Hynde [1998] the Court took notice of the fact that an item was unlawful under the Criminal Justice Act 1988 in deciding it was clearly meant for causing injury.

Stealth knives and Truncheons

5. The Order defines a stealth knife as “a knife or spike, which has a blade, or sharp point, made from a material that is not readily detectable by apparatus used for detecting metal and which is not designed for domestic use or for use in the processing, preparation or consumption of food or as a toy”.

6. The Order defines a truncheon as “a straight, side-handled or friction-lock truncheon (sometimes known as a baton).” “Telescopic truncheons” are already contained in the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988.


7. The definition for a stealth knife has been carefully drawn up to deal with a specific type of knife and there are two key parts to it. The knife must

* Be made from a material that is not readily detectable by apparatus used for detecting metal

And

* Is not designed for domestic use or for use in the processing, preparation or consumption of food or as a toy.

8. Due to the number of stealth knives and truncheons in existence we are unable to give an exhaustive list of what items are included within the measure and to specify what is not included. However a careful reading of the definition should assist those whose task it is to enforce the legislation. Ultimately though it will be a matter for the Courts to decide whether a particular weapon is either a stealth knife or a truncheon.

Exemptions

9. Conduct for the purposes of functions carried out on behalf of the Crown, or a visiting force, are subject to a defence under Section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act. So too is conduct for the purposes of making the weapons available to museums or galleries and the loan or hire of such weapons by museums and galleries for cultural, artistic or educational purposes. Section 141 of the Act should be referred to for the defences.

10. The Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988f excludes antique weapons and provides that, “a weapon is an antique if it was manufactured more than 100 years before the date of any offence alleged to have been committed in respect of that weapon under subsection (1) of the said section 141 or section 50(2) or (3) of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979 (improper importation).”

Contact Points.

11. Any enquires about this circular should be addressed in the first place to Jonathan Batt, 0207 273 3885.

MICHAEL GILLESPIE
Head of Public Order and Crime Issues Unit
June 2004

Violent Crime Reduction Act Amendments: 2006.


Sale etc. of knives and other weapons

(1) The Criminal Justice Act 1988 is amended as follows.

(2) In section 141A(1) (prohibition on sale of knives etc. to persons under sixteen), for “sixteen” substitute “eighteen”.

(3) In subsections (5), (8) and (9) of section 141 (defences relating to museums and galleries to offence of manufacture, sale etc. of prescribed weapons), for “prove” substitute “show”.

(4) After subsection (11) of that section insert—

“(11A) It shall be a defence for a person charged in respect of conduct of his relating to a weapon to which this section applies—

(a) with an offence under subsection (1) above, or

(b) with an offence under section 50(2) or (3) of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979,

to show that his conduct was for the purpose only of making the weapon in question available for one or more of the purposes specified in subsection (11B).

(11B) Those purposes are—

(a) the purposes of theatrical performances and of rehearsals for such performances;

(b) the production of films (within the meaning of Part 1 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 – see section 5B of that Act);

© the production of television programmes (within the meaning of the Communications Act 2003 – see section 405(1) of that Act).


(11C) For the purposes of this section a person shall be taken to have shown a matter specified in subsection (5), (8), (9) or (11A) if—

(a) sufficient evidence of that matter is adduced to raise an issue with respect to it; and

(b) the contrary is not proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

(11D) The Secretary of State may by order made by statutory instrument—

(a) provide for exceptions and exemptions from the offence under subsection (1) above or from the prohibition in subsection (4) above; and

(b) provide for it to be a defence in proceedings for such an offence, or for an offence under section 50(2) or (3) of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979, to show the matters specified or described in the order.

(11E) A statutory instrument containing an order under this section shall not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before Parliament and approved by a resolution of each House.”

(5) The defence in section 141(11A) is not available in relation to so much of any charge as relates to conduct taking place before the commencement of this section.

Edited by support, 21 April 2010 - 09:09 PM.


#18 Lior

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 11:26 AM

Here I am dreading the thought of being nicked on the way home from BHS with my new rolling pin...

#19 KennethD

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 06:29 PM

Don't even think of shopping at Ann Summers :unsure:




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