51 replies to this topic

[Viper]

Is it same as England&Wales? Perfectly legitimate to use?

[CmdKeen]

While someone will no doubt be along with the disclaimer soon as - yes it is not illegal to own / use handcuffs. However be aware of the necessity for their legal use if restraining someone. I've not ever come across door staff in Scotland using them, and that's including staff at some dodge clubs (both dodge for their patrons and for the quality of door staff...) though someone else here may have.

[Viper]

While someone will no doubt be along with the disclaimer soon as - yes it is not illegal to own / use handcuffs. However be aware of the necessity for their legal use if restraining someone. I've not ever come across door staff in Scotland using them, and that's including staff at some dodge clubs (both dodge for their patrons and for the quality of door staff...) though someone else here may have.

hehehe

[Funky Drummer]

As with E&W, only considered any sort of offensive weapon if used in that way. Legitimate to own, although i'm sure eyebrows would be raised by local cops and licensing depts if door staff started carrying them and appropriate intelligence submitted. And then, as highlighted, there's any subsequent civil or criminal fallout from their actual use.

[CmdKeen]

As an additional thought I could also imagine that premises and staff using them would find extra attention being paid to them during join police SIA licensing checks - if only to find out why they felt it necessary to carry them, I'd imagine the SIA rep would want to know about training etc

[kjmcculloch]

I've never seen any door staff using them. But I did work at a holiday park in Ayrshire where security had them. On a personal note, provided they undergo a recognised training course in their use and are insured as such I have no issue with this. We use handcuffs for our protection and the protection of others including the person we have arrested/detained. Given that the door staff will be dealing with disturbances until we arrive I don't see why they shouldn't be afforded the same protection.

[Funky Drummer]

i know i'd be more than pi$$ed off if a security guard or bouncer handcuffed me.

mind you i guess i'm not exatly the sort that'll be fighting with them in the first place.

[scottyboy]

On a personal note, provided they undergo a recognised training course in their use and are insured as such I have no issue with this. We use handcuffs for our protection and the protection of others including the person we have arrested/detained. Given that the door staff will be dealing with disturbances until we arrive I don't see why they shouldn't be afforded the same protection.

I'm with Funky on this one - i've got a MAJOR problem with their use by door staff / security. If a doorman tried that with me (albeit with the same ryder that Funky gave in that i'm not generally the type of person to give cause in the first place) I'd be going down the route of an assault charge against them.

I have got a big issue with a small proportion of doormen (sorry door "persons") who think that they can use "techniques" against people because they don't like them and I've seen it all too often. At the end of the day the police go through a pretty intensive screening, vetting and interview process in a bid to detect and stop people who have short fuses, power hungry / confrontational attitudes from being given cuffs, batons and CS for the sake of public protection. Nightclubs don't and, as has been seen from recent news (here), the SIA accreditation process appears not to either.

In my opinion, and it is only my opinion, if a doorman thinks that their safety is so at risk that they require handcuffs then they should do what every other civillian and even an off duty cop would do and pick up the phone and dial 999!!!!

Scott

[MrBlonde]

In my opinion, and it is only my opinion, if a doorman thinks that their safety is so at risk that they require handcuffs then they should do what every other civillian and even an off duty cop would do and pick up the phone and dial 999!!!!

"Excuse me mate, could you let go of the knife and stop struggling with my mate and I while I dial the coppers, we don't have anything with us to restrain you and prevent you from potentially killing us or those nearby, so please play nice and wait to be arrested, thanks"

[Londonbased]

I've never seen any door staff using them. But I did work at a holiday park in Ayrshire where security had them. On a personal note, provided they undergo a recognised training course in their use and are insured as such I have no issue with this. We use handcuffs for our protection and the protection of others including the person we have arrested/detained. Given that the door staff will be dealing with disturbances until we arrive I don't see why they shouldn't be afforded the same protection.

I've seen security staff carrying handcuffs at holiday parks in England too (Blackpool Pleasure Park and Thorpe Park in Chertsey, Surrey) so it looks like it is permitted on both sides of the border.
The security staff in Blackpool also wore police style checked caps which I thought was overdoing it.
I would imagine that they should have received appropriate training and have been advised by management to avoid using them unless absolutely necessary. It wouldn't do their family oriented public image much good to handcuff punters.
I've never seen door staff carry them though.

[CmdKeen]

"Excuse me mate, could you let go of the knife and stop struggling with my mate and I while I dial the coppers, we don't have anything with us to restrain you and prevent you from potentially killing us or those nearby, so please play nice and wait to be arrested, thanks"

I see what you're getting at but cuffs really aren't the most useful option if you're facing a man with a knife. And if you think they are then it just goes to show how the possession of some PPE can lead to "red mist" type problems whereby you think you're equipped to handle situations you're not.

[MrBlonde]

I see what you're getting at but cuffs really aren't the most useful option if you're facing a man with a knife. And if you think they are then it just goes to show how the possession of some PPE can lead to "red mist" type problems whereby you think you're equipped to handle situations you're not.

I agree, when faced with a knife I'd prefer to be holding a Glock than a pair of cuffs...

Cuffs (regular and Plasti-type) are simply another tool for the job, just like you also have CS, Baton etc and while I wouldn't be reaching for a set from the outset, if I ended up in a situation where a violent nutter needed restraining, I'd use some restraints (the clue is in the name)

BTW I'm equipped to handle situations within the current legislation, there are potentially lots of situations I'm not equiped to deal with but there's legally nothing I can do about that, other than rely on my training, wits, a lot of planning and a bit of luck.
It never ceases to amaze me the attitude the Police have towards PPE. Do a search and you'll find dozens of posts about not getting into situations off duty, due to a lack of PPE and the risks involved, yet it's fine for Private Security to put themselves in harms way every day with minimal PPE, and you throw your teddies out the cot when we try to expand our provision and make our lives safer

[Onlyme2008]

I'm with Funky on this one - i've got a MAJOR problem with their use by door staff / security. If a doorman tried that with me (albeit with the same ryder that Funky gave in that i'm not generally the type of person to give cause in the first place) I'd be going down the route of an assault charge against them.

I have got a big issue with a small proportion of doormen (sorry door "persons") who think that they can use "techniques" against people because they don't like them and I've seen it all too often. At the end of the day the police go through a pretty intensive screening, vetting and interview process in a bid to detect and stop people who have short fuses, power hungry / confrontational attitudes from being given cuffs, batons and CS for the sake of public protection. Nightclubs don't and, as has been seen from recent news (here), the SIA accreditation process appears not to either.

In my opinion, and it is only my opinion, if a doorman thinks that their safety is so at risk that they require handcuffs then they should do what every other civillian and even an off duty cop would do and pick up the phone and dial 999!!!!

Scott

Yes they do, and still we get bad police officers, the same has we get bad door staff.

Its nice idea, if only the real world was so simple

[Funky Drummer]

A fair point Onlyme2008, we get bad apples in all sectors of society and the real world is not that simple.

So let's not complicate it further by blurring the boundaries between who can and cannot put you in a state of detention at their will

[scottyboy]

"Excuse me mate, could you let go of the knife and stop struggling with my mate and I while I dial the coppers, we don't have anything with us to restrain you and prevent you from potentially killing us or those nearby, so please play nice and wait to be arrested, thanks"

Handcuffs are far from the best option here and, in fact, its the last thing i'd be reaching for. I'd be shouting in and asking for an ARV and a dog unit whilst enroute. On arrival I'd firstly use tac comms and the very first thing i'd be reaching for would be my radio to get more divisional units here ASAP if there really was a knife! Believe it or not the presence of just two cops will more often than not lead to a footchase in this situation than someone getting stabbed!

My next option if that didn't work would be to draw my spray from a good distance away and, threaten to spray all the while buying time for the ARV / dog station / div units arrival.

If things didn't de-escalate I'd then be spraying the person and, if i really had to come closer to attempt to gain control, I would be doing so wearing my vest and with my baton fully racked. If i had more time i'd also be going in with shields.

Everything I mention above cannot be achieved by a loan doorman and the fact you think cuffs would help here proves my point that giving them to doorstaff would only cause more folk to get hurt! Furthermore, the two most effective tools i've stated above are tac comms and police presence not a piece of forged metal and someone charging in all gun-hoe. Finally I'm legally authorized to carry CS and a baton which a doorman isn't - the reason for that surely is that the home sec believes that the vetting controls and training are sufficient to trust all police with this and insufficient to trust all doorstaff!

On average in the area i work in there are maybe 2 / 3 serious assaults per week. So why don't we then give the neds handcuffs to protect themselves. I'm not protective about folk getting to play with PPE like the above suggests - i don't give a hoot about that at all to be honest. Instead i'm protective about:

1) my safety (on duty but also, moreso off duty)
2) the safety of doorstaff for the reasons outlined above and
3) the safety of civis who have a small risk of encoutering a powerhungry cop with an attitude problem even after all the recruitment processes so god knows how much higher that risk would be from a member of doorstaff!

Don't get me wrong here - i'm NOT saying all doorstaff are like this; however, the risk is significantly greater than for a cop! If you want to use the cabletie-type plastic cuffs then i could maybe see the benefit in but a small number of situation! But thats like saying maybe a taxi driver should carry a baseball bat in his taxi just in case someone tries to rob him and that's illegal!

If i had my way rigidcuffs would be on the same list as batons! At the end of the day if you, as doorstaff, wrongly detain someone then you've not only got entrapment charges, professional negligence, common but possibly serious assault (owing to the use of a weapon) .....

Edited by scottyboy, 11 January 2010 - 05:46 PM.

[MrBlonde]

*snip*

Oh dear God...

OK, firstly the discussion surrounds private security using a tool to help with their duties, we can't call for an ARV or dog unit, don't have a baton or CS yet have to face armed and/or violent muppets on a regular basis - so what exactly was the point of the first part of your post?

Moving on, and trying to put aside the thoughts that we're trying to steal a piece of kit reserved solely for Police, restraints were designed to restrain people, as I posted above if I need to restrain someone, they are actually pretty effective - you may have discovered the same in your line of work too?

The first line of defence for any security person is the same as for you guys - tac comms and diffuse the problem (although planning to avoid a problem totally is actually MY first line of defence).
If that fails, or you are having to 'wade in' to an incident already well underway (one punter is already attacking another) then you try and separate, disarm, restrain and calm and if at that material time you feel need for a pair of cuffs to protect yourself or others from further assault, WHAT THE HELL IS THE ISSUE?

I'm very glad legislation isn't down to you, or others like you. Cuffs are legal to own and carry and if used correctly and legally, WHAT THE HELL IS THE ISSUE?
If they are misused then I'm sure the boys in blue will investigate the offence and prosecute the offending security officer to the letter of the law, so WHAT THE HELL IS THE ISSUE?

Thanks for listening

[scottyboy]

Firstly let me say this - I am not looking for an argument i'm only expressing my point of view on the subject matter so don't take what i say as a confrontational attack on you. I don't know you and I have stated numerous times in my post i have no issue with the "decent" members of the private security profession from carrying them. My issue, and you really can't argue with it, that your industry does have a lot of ties to SOC and my fear is with those who have those ties or those who are "wannabe cops" or are simply the not-so-decent ones.

I'll reply to your post in each bit with the above ryder and it will be my last on this topic:

Oh dear God...

OK, firstly the discussion surrounds private security using a tool to help with their duties, we can't call for an ARV or dog unit, don't have a baton or CS yet have to face armed and/or violent muppets on a regular basis - so what exactly was the point of the first part of your post?

This was an attempt to highlight to yourself at how the police handle this type of situation. Force Overview, at least in my force, would not authorize two cops to "wade in" as you put it in the above situation and instead ALL of the above steps would generally be carried out. Having two cops with all the CS, baton, vest, radio with a lot resources in comparison to you with a set of cuffs and a limited number of folk to assist. You have to remember, as callous as it sounds, but getting yourself injured only takes treatment time away from the initial victim. In short - keep yourself safe, stand back and call 999 if you think there's a chance of you getting injured. An off duty cop would have no option but to do exactly the same and one injured is always better than two. If the accused was hell bent on doing something and I was on my own the old "keep obs from a safe distance and await resources" would no doubt be coming out over the radio from control.

Its merely my observation that non-police often mistake helping folk for them being super human and they fail to stop and think in the "heat of the moment" at the possible recourse on them while a cop would. Once again I am not saying this is you.

Moving on, and trying to put aside the thoughts that we're trying to steal a piece of kit reserved solely for Police, restraints were designed to restrain people, as I posted above if I need to restrain someone, they are actually pretty effective - you may have discovered the same in your line of work too?

Yes but first you have to attain appropriate control of the person to apply the cuffs and get close enough to them to apply them. A knife weilding mad man as your intial post suggested wouldn't i fear let you get close enough if all you had were cuffs (again hence my initial bit about baton, cs, dogs etc). Also while cuffs can be used, sometimes to great effect, they are there primarily as a preventative measure. Even once the cuffs are on, if someone is hell bent on going ape then they will albeit it they are then slightly easier to control.

If that fails, or you are having to 'wade in' to an incident already well underway (one punter is already attacking another) then you try and separate, disarm, restrain and calm and if at that material time you feel need for a pair of cuffs to protect yourself or others from further assault, WHAT THE HELL IS THE ISSUE?

Perhaps we may have found one of the differences in our training. Wading into a fight in a club with only you and your neighbour would not be a decision taken lightly. I'd be calling in, asking for more units on the hurry up before i moved a yard. All too often the two fighting unite in their hatred of the police and before you know it your big red button's being pushed. Don't get me wrong I'm not for a second advocating standing round and doing nothing but if my above steps failed to work I'd be updating the control room as to the situation and, if given heeding the force overview decision which i'm in no doubt would be to await further assistance to contain the situation.

I'm very glad legislation isn't down to you, or others like you. Cuffs are legal to own and carry and if used correctly and legally, WHAT THE HELL IS THE ISSUE?
If they are misused then I'm sure the boys in blue will investigate the offence and prosecute the offending security officer to the letter of the law, so WHAT THE HELL IS THE ISSUE?

Legislation is in part down to us on the ground and the police believe it or not have a pretty big sway with the legislator especially in relation to offensive weapons etc.

The "WHAT THE HELL IS THE ISSUE?" part of your post does however make it seem like you have "red mist" desending and that isn't meant as a dig but merely an observation. If so, then this is exactly what I'm referring to. Its hard enough for us at the best of times, even with all our training and 40+hrs per week, to try and stop the red mist in some circumstances and, as you say yourself, sometimes some of us have over reacted. Surely then you can see my side then that giving cuffs to others with a whole lot less training is perhaps asking for more trouble than it would save?

Thats all I'm saying / have ever been saying in relation to this topic! Nothing more / less and nothing against you as a person / professional. I wouldn't be able to do your job for the reasons you've outlined and that's why I became a cop so i give you kudos for doing it.

Thanks for listening

Ditto.

[CmdKeen]

I feel vaguely guilty about bringing in the red mist now!

When it comes to restraining someone there are plenty of techniques available, the advantage of cuffs come in making the person mobile yet secure - which is what the police need. Pinning people to the floor (using proper techniques to avoid positional asphyxia) is frankly as effective, they're not going anywhere are you are able to apply on/off pain to gain compliance. Cuffs can play their part but to argue they are some magic weapon against generally aggressive people is to exaggerate their effectiveness. If you are highly trained (and most regulars frankly aren't) there are a few takedown moves but then there are takedown moves that require practice and don't require cuffs.

On the knife issue - if you're pal is struggling with an armed assailant you're well beyond the point of cuffs, batter the guy, you'd be within your rights. If an officer was in the situation they'd be in there swinging a baton and being praised afterwards (yes CS, but if that failed / situation where couldn't be used) - an armed assailant is easily in a position to kill - if I had a hypothetical choice between draw cuffs or weight in with my hands and feet the cuffs wouldn't be out.

Cuffs - legal yes (but the thread hasn't ended there) Necessary? I'd say not - given the number of bouncers in seriously dodge places that don't use them. Good idea? No for the several reasons outlined in earlier posts.

[MrBlonde]

Careful guys, this thread looks like it may turn into a decent debate

Its merely my observation that non-police often mistake helping folk for them being super human and they fail to stop and think in the "heat of the moment" at the possible recourse on them while a cop would. Once again I am not saying this is you.

Fair enough, but on the whole the Police are not there to protect people, your numbers are too few and you can't be everywhere at once so you deal with the aftermath and gather evidence for the courts etc, Security is there to do the protection, be it goods, valuables, premisis or persons.
Depending on what is going down, we regularly have to wade in, it's what we are employed to do, it's what our employer pays us to do; we know the risks and if we we're unhappy to accept them, we'd find an easier job, like being a copper

Yes but first you have to attain appropriate control of the person to apply the cuffs and get close enough to them to apply them. A knife weilding mad man as your intial post suggested wouldn't i fear let you get close enough if all you had were cuffs (again hence my initial bit about baton, cs, dogs etc). Also while cuffs can be used, sometimes to great effect, they are there primarily as a preventative measure. Even once the cuffs are on, if someone is hell bent on going ape then they will albeit it they are then slightly easier to control.

Very true, but as previously posted cuffs are to maintain control once you've achieved it and help prevent war breaking out again while we wait for you nice people to pop around from the donut shop and take over.

The "WHAT THE HELL IS THE ISSUE?" part of your post does however make it seem like you have "red mist" desending and that isn't meant as a dig but merely an observation. If so, then this is exactly what I'm referring to. Its hard enough for us at the best of times, even with all our training and 40+hrs per week, to try and stop the red mist in some circumstances and, as you say yourself, sometimes some of us have over reacted. Surely then you can see my side then that giving cuffs to others with a whole lot less training is perhaps asking for more trouble than it would save?

LOL, I don't do Red Mist, I was merely 'raising my voice' as I didn't think my point was coming across. Cuffs are legal and if we use them legally, there's no issue, if we break the law I'm fairly sure the attending copper will hear all about it from the detained MoP and investigate as necessary.
You'll not only get a Section 5 in relation to the yob, but you have a bonus detection of assault or whatever against the security guy, it's a win-win for the boys in blue

I feel vaguely guilty about bringing in the red mist now!

When it comes to restraining someone there are plenty of techniques available, the advantage of cuffs come in making the person mobile yet secure - which is what the police need. Pinning people to the floor (using proper techniques to avoid positional asphyxia) is frankly as effective, they're not going anywhere are you are able to apply on/off pain to gain compliance. Cuffs can play their part but to argue they are some magic weapon against generally aggressive people is to exaggerate their effectiveness. If you are highly trained (and most regulars frankly aren't) there are a few takedown moves but then there are takedown moves that require practice and don't require cuffs.

On the knife issue - if you're pal is struggling with an armed assailant you're well beyond the point of cuffs, batter the guy, you'd be within your rights. If an officer was in the situation they'd be in there swinging a baton and being praised afterwards (yes CS, but if that failed / situation where couldn't be used) - an armed assailant is easily in a position to kill - if I had a hypothetical choice between draw cuffs or weight in with my hands and feet the cuffs wouldn't be out.

Cuffs - legal yes (but the thread hasn't ended there) Necessary? I'd say not - given the number of bouncers in seriously dodge places that don't use them. Good idea? No for the several reasons outlined in earlier posts.

Nice post.
I agree with the use of force part re helping a colleague in trouble but DS have a bad enough rep as it is without witnesses seeing them beat a guy into submission (they often haven't heard the threats or seen the knife) so a quick slap, takedown and restrain is always a better option where possible, cuffs are a tool to assist with this.

Oh and for the record I'm not DS although I have worked a door or two, I'm CP so my 'threats' and ROE are a little different to most on here; Plasticuffs don't take up any room and are another legal tool that may be of use, although generally the LAST thing I'm looking to do is hang about waiting for the cavalry.

Edited by MrBlonde, 12 January 2010 - 09:01 AM.

[scottyboy]

Fair enough, but on the whole the Police are not there to protect people, your numbers are too few and you can't be everywhere at once so you deal with the aftermath and gather evidence for the courts etc, Security is there to do the protection, be it goods, valuables, premisis or persons.

Hold the fort - we might even agree on something. .... at least on how thin we are on the ground. Although I did swear an oath to hold the office of constable who's roles are to:

guard, watch and patrol and:

• Protect life and property
  
• Preserve order
  
• Prevent crime and detect offenders
  
• Prepare reports, serve legal documents and attend court to give evidence

Just seems unfortunate that a lot of our time is spend doing the last one while the top three often suffer at its expense.

You'll not only get a Section 5 in relation to the yob, but you have a bonus detection of assault or whatever against the security guy, it's a win-win for the boys in blue

No such thing as a s5 up here. Would most likely be s47 / s49 Civic Govt (Scot) Act for offensive weapon / bladed object depending on what was used and, if the door staff incorrectly used cuffs a charge or serious assault against them. Not sure if others would agree but generally my s47s / s49s get off with quite a bit less if found guilty than serious assault bodies do.

Oh and for the record I'm not DS although I have worked a door or two, I'm CP so my 'threats' and ROE are a little different to most on here; Plasticuffs don't take up any room and are another legal tool that may be of use, although generally the LAST thing I'm looking to do is hang about waiting for the cavalry.

I have no issue w/ plasticuffs and, for the record, i don't have a local doughnut shop either!

[Nelson]

Cuffs for door staff get the big neon flashing NO in my books.

IMO they cause more trouble for us than if they'd just let the punters sort their problems out themselves. Usually you have angry man versus angry man, but when doorstaff are involved its angry man versus doorstaff vs angry man who is also now vs doorstaff.

Police officers have clearly defined powers of arrest and detention. We know when we can use them. There are no such powers for door staff, yet they still seem to do drugs turns, detentions etc all the time without recourse, partly because the police turn a blind eye. Hancuffs will just add another item to the list of things they can do wrong.

Nothing screams more of ARREST than handcuffs.

[MrBlonde]

Cuffs for door staff get the big neon flashing NO in my books.

IMO they cause more trouble for us than if they'd just let the punters sort their problems out themselves. Usually you have angry man versus angry man, but when doorstaff are involved its angry man versus doorstaff vs angry man who is also now vs doorstaff.

Police officers have clearly defined powers of arrest and detention. We know when we can use them. There are no such powers for door staff, yet they still seem to do drugs turns, detentions etc all the time without recourse, partly because the police turn a blind eye. Hancuffs will just add another item to the list of things they can do wrong.

Nothing screams more of ARREST than handcuffs.

Don't you have 'any person' powers of arrest up in Scotland then?

[Nelson]

Don't you have 'any person' powers of arrest up in Scotland then?

"Any citizen who witnesses a crime (other than a minor one) may arrest the criminal, but cannot arrest on suspicion or on information from others, nor can they open lockfast places to make an arrest. Where the crime is a breach of the peace, a member of the public may try to stop it, but cannot apprehend the offender. Once an arrest has been made the police must be contacted as soon as possible and the person handed over to police."

There is no citizen power of detention (arrest and detention are two seperate things in Scotland) laid down in Common or Statute law.

Breach of the Peace is effectively our Section 5 POA, but as you can see there is no power of arrest or detention for citizens, so anything minor like shouting and swearing, challenging others to fight etc, is not arrestable or detainable by citizens.

The 'information of others' part is where our statutory police powers of detention enter into play, but still there is no power of arrest, so technically, if someone approaches you at the door and says "That guy just bottled me" and points someone out to you, you as a citizen technically have no powers of arrest or detention.

What actually happens in real life though isn't what is said above, but going back to the handcuffs issue, any decent defence will argue the arrest of his client was unlawful, thereby opening yourselves up to all sorts of ######. If you hold on to someone, you could probably say "he agreed to remain with us your honour" however if he was handcuffed it probably eliminates that option.

[MrBlonde]

Cheers Nelson, interesting stuff

[whatplod]

"Any citizen who witnesses a crime (other than a minor one) may arrest the criminal, but cannot arrest on suspicion or on information from others, nor can they open lockfast places to make an arrest. Where the crime is a breach of the peace, a member of the public may try to stop it, but cannot apprehend the offender. Once an arrest has been made the police must be contacted as soon as possible and the person handed over to police."

There is no citizen power of detention (arrest and detention are two seperate things in Scotland) laid down in Common or Statute law.

Breach of the Peace is effectively our Section 5 POA, but as you can see there is no power of arrest or detention for citizens, so anything minor like shouting and swearing, challenging others to fight etc, is not arrestable or detainable by citizens.

The 'information of others' part is where our statutory police powers of detention enter into play, but still there is no power of arrest, so technically, if someone approaches you at the door and says "That guy just bottled me" and points someone out to you, you as a citizen technically have no powers of arrest or detention.

What actually happens in real life though isn't what is said above, but going back to the handcuffs issue, any decent defence will argue the arrest of his client was unlawful, thereby opening yourselves up to all sorts of ######. If you hold on to someone, you could probably say "he agreed to remain with us your honour" however if he was handcuffed it probably eliminates that option.

If you can,t arrest on suspicion,how do store detectives arrest people ,when they are told by their instore cctv operator, about a theft,as this would come under "acting on the information of others"?