Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Police officers can now be required to produce notebook in court


  • Please log in to reply
36 replies to this topic

#26 Londonbased

Londonbased

    Die Hard

  • Members
  • 1,380 posts

Posted 17 December 2009 - 11:31 PM

You clearly do not know what you are talking about. Everything is not discloseable. If you really want to know about disclosure I suggest you go an read the Criminal Procedure and Investigation Act 1996, the associated Code of Practive and the Attorney-General's Guidelines on Disclosure. After a few hours reading them, then tell me why 'everything is disclosable.'


There may be differences in opinion and between theory and practice.
I challenge anybody to give me just one example of a time when a defence lawyer asked to see a PNB / EAB or any other notebook / document and the court refused (Excepting the official secrets act obviously)

I stand by my postings as what actually goes on in the real world.

#27 Akki

Akki

    Forum Obsessed!

  • Members
  • 4,042 posts

Posted 17 December 2009 - 11:33 PM

There may be differences in opinion and between theory and practice.
I challenge anybody to give me just one example of a time when a defence lawyer asked to see a PNB / EAB or any other notebook / document and the court refused (Excepting the official secrets act obviously)

I stand by my postings as what actually goes on in the real world.

You are still wrong. I would hazard a guess I've attended more trials than pretty much anyone else on this site. 2/3 per week.

#28 SBG

SBG

    PoliceSpecials.com Staff & LPDC Chieftain

  • Moderators
  • 15,007 posts

Posted 17 December 2009 - 11:34 PM

You are still wrong. I would hazard a guess I've attended more trials than pretty much anyone else on this site. 2/3 per week.



As the defendant!!!



That is a lot for most officers

#29 Londonbased

Londonbased

    Die Hard

  • Members
  • 1,380 posts

Posted 17 December 2009 - 11:38 PM

You are still wrong. I would hazard a guess I've attended more trials than pretty much anyone else on this site. 2/3 per week.


2/3 per week????
OK.
This thread started off on a Scottish point of Law so let's bow out and leave the Scots to it.

#30 Akki

Akki

    Forum Obsessed!

  • Members
  • 4,042 posts

Posted 18 December 2009 - 08:06 AM

As the defendant!!!



That is a lot for most officers

No, not the defendant! :D and I'm not an officer (any more).

#31 SBG

SBG

    PoliceSpecials.com Staff & LPDC Chieftain

  • Moderators
  • 15,007 posts

Posted 18 December 2009 - 08:17 AM

your not a magistrate now are you?

#32 gts0994

gts0994

    Settling In

  • Members
  • 242 posts

Posted 19 December 2009 - 01:02 AM

I had a conversation with a regular colleague recently who informed me that police officers can now be required to produce their notebooks in court. This is apparently as a result of a stated case that occurred very recently (in last month or so). If so, this would obviously be quite a change as previously we only had to allow our notebooks to be examined if we used them in giving evidence. If we didn't need to use our notebook then the defence could not use a notebook in cross-examination.

I was wondering if anyone could confirm if they have heard of this and provide more details?

This could be an issue for the odd cop who appears to be allgeric to writing. :D



It is all to do with the new "disclosure of evidence" that has been in place since October. Can't really tell you much more as i have not recieved my training yet. if you are in Strathclyde, i think most of the regular cops have had the training input. As far as I can gather, the defence can ask to see everything now in relation to a case

Edited by gts0994, 19 December 2009 - 01:03 AM.


#33 Nelson

Nelson

    Die Hard

  • Power Users+
  • 1,584 posts

Posted 19 December 2009 - 10:52 PM

It is all to do with the new "disclosure of evidence" that has been in place since October. Can't really tell you much more as i have not recieved my training yet. if you are in Strathclyde, i think most of the regular cops have had the training input. As far as I can gather, the defence can ask to see everything now in relation to a case


They can ask, but they might not get.

It's important to note the new disclosure rules (which apply to Solemn cases only at present I beleive) mean only that the police have to reveal all evidence to the Procurator Fiscal. Its ultimately then up to the PF what gets revealed to the defence and what doesn't.

When i saw an incident a while back whilst I was calling to report it, I was starting to write down what I saw and when, I then consulted that whilst the officer took my statement but he said that I should hold onto my own notes incase it went to court because they were like a live version of the events as they took place, and could carry more weight.


If the officer was sensible, he should have seized your notes as a production and kept it himself, referring to it in the report and associated statements.

One of the advantages of my electronic PDA notebook, is that it's bloody hard to work, and if you have particular parts which you might have to reveal in evidence, they just get printed out (with signed authentification certificates) and they're used instead of the original. No defence is seeing any part of my notes that isn't selected by me pretty much :D

#34 Londonbased

Londonbased

    Die Hard

  • Members
  • 1,380 posts

Posted 24 December 2009 - 01:38 PM

You clearly do not know what you are talking about. Everything is not discloseable. If you really want to know about disclosure I suggest you go an read the Criminal Procedure and Investigation Act 1996, the associated Code of Practive and the Attorney-General's Guidelines on Disclosure. After a few hours reading them, then tell me why 'everything is disclosable.'


The courts have upheld that relevant material should have been disclosed and produced in court even when it turned out that the investigating officers were completely unaware of it at the time. The material was either witheld by private witnesses or was not available at the time. Cases have been lost as a result of this non-disclosure.
I haven't read the Criminal Procedure and Investigation Act 1996 in its entirety (who has?) and I certainly won't be spending a "few hours" doing so but the fact remains that IN PRACTICE the defence have a right to see everything and a judge or magistrate has never refused unless it is on grounds of national security or the like.
Despite what it may say in some lawbook, everything is in reality disclosable.

#35 MBK273

MBK273

    I'm new!

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 31 July 2010 - 03:28 PM

I'd imagine if there was going to be something so important in your notebook that you would be required to produce it, then the Fiscal would probably seize your notebook before the trial, as has happened to me on occasion in relation to very serious incidents.

#36 Lucozade

Lucozade

    Forum Legend

  • Members
  • 2,446 posts

Posted 31 July 2010 - 04:03 PM

I'd imagine if there was going to be something so important in your notebook that you would be required to produce it, then the Fiscal would probably seize your notebook before the trial, as has happened to me on occasion in relation to very serious incidents.


Were you not worried about the PF 'seizing' your notebook rather than merely requesting it be lodged as a production? By 'serious incident' are you talking about a case on solemn procedure?

#37 goldfgy

goldfgy

    Die Hard

  • Power Users+
  • 1,738 posts

Posted 31 July 2010 - 10:12 PM

In the States, police notebooks can be introduced as evidence for any party in a case.




0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users