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Driving a Minibus - D1


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#1 wannabecop

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 09:12 AM

I've come across the following details relating to driving a minibus on a driving licence that doesn't specifically have a D1 category.

www.dvlni.gov.uk/drivers/no_D1.htm

Essentially it says that for people operating in the voluntary sector (clubs, youth groups etc) it is possible to drive a minbus despite not having the category (D1) explicitly on your licence. I'm not sure if this is specific to NI but as there's no NI section thought I'd ask here.

This seems unusual - is this generally well known or has anyone come across it before?

#2 pjenx

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 10:44 AM

CAR LICENCES HELD 1ST JANUARY 1997

Entitlement to drive cars prior to 1st January 1997 – shown as group A (B for automatics) on old style licences or as category B and D1 not for hire or reward on a new style licence allows a person to drive a minibus provided: -

· That the driver is aged 21 or over, the minibus has a maximum of 17 seats including the drivers and is not being used for hire or reward.

To drive a minibus, which has 9 or more passenger seats for hire or reward a passenger carrying vehicle entitlement (PCV) (Category D1 or D) is normally required. To be able to obtain this entitlement the higher medical standards must be met and a further driving test taken.

N.B. Hire or reward encompasses any payment in cash or kind by (or on behalf of) passengers which gives them the right to be carried.

DRIVERS WHO DO NOT HAVE MINIBUS ENTITLEMENT (CATEGORY D1)

If a driving licence does not have minibus entitlement (D1) there are certain circumstances whereby a minibus can still be driven.

You may drive a minibus with up to 16 passenger seats provided: -

· You drive on behalf of a non-commercial body for social purposes but not for hire or reward (unless operating under a permit).
· You are aged 21 or over
· You have held a car (category B) licence for at least 2 years
· You are providing your service on a voluntary basis, and
· The minibus maximum weight is not more than 3.5 tonnes excluding any specialist equipment for the carriage of disabled passengers. Minibuses up to 4.25 tonnes will be permitted in certain circumstances.



I work in DVLA as my main job, Feel free to ask any questions to clarify

#3 Rocket

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 11:43 AM

Depending on what the purpose for the minibus use is, you may also need a minibus permit from your local council.

I have one for instance that covers me for the Scout Movement and our local church trips. I obtained this from Hertfordshire County Council after going on a day course which involved theory, safety and a driving test with an examiner.

#4 pjenx

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 12:37 PM

If your driving a minibus, NOT FOR HIRE OR REWARD, this means nobody on the bus is paying and your not getting paid at the time. For example a teacher running a school trip would not be able to as they are still getting paid a salary for being a teacher.

I can drive a minibus, for the local Sea Cadet Group. You dont necessarily need a permit for this. As the Sea Cadets are a non commercial body and a charity. If I was to drive a bus I would have a letter from the Commanding officer or chairman to confirm this.

My post above is what the users in the DVLA have from the legal team to give out to the public.

Should answer most things for you.


Some questions the DVLA get asked are...

1. I am going on a rugby tour and want to drive a bus.
No you cant as the rugby tour is not a non commercial body
2. I am a teacher...blah blah
Nope as your getting paid.

#5 panda plodder

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 01:44 PM

I've come across the following details relating to driving a minibus on a driving licence that doesn't specifically have a D1 category.

www.dvlni.gov.uk/drivers/no_D1.htm

Essentially it says that for people operating in the voluntary sector (clubs, youth groups etc) it is possible to drive a minbus despite not having the category (D1) explicitly on your licence. I'm not sure if this is specific to NI but as there's no NI section thought I'd ask here.

This seems unusual - is this generally well known or has anyone come across it before?



So you quoting a different licensing body than that in England and Wales, in Law: England & Wales

your link is for Northern Ireland

Edited by panda plodder, 10 February 2009 - 01:46 PM.


#6 wannabecop

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 08:20 AM

So you quoting a different licensing body than that in England and Wales, in Law: England & Wales

your link is for Northern Ireland



Yes Panda Plodder, that is why my original post contained the line "I'm not sure if this is specific to NI but as there's no NI section thought I'd ask here."

Thanks for that Pjenx, very helpful. From your rugby tour example, what qualifies as a non commercial body? My specific situation relates to the Boys' Brigade which I'm sure probably qulaifies but was just interested to know?

#7 pjenx

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 09:54 AM

non commercial body is usually a charitable organisation, that is not for gain and registered with the charities commission. Must have a valid charity number. If you plan on driving a bus just make sure that the users are not paying for the transport, otherwise you may need a permitt from council, and make sure you get nothing from doing it. Once thats in a letter form to cover you for that date you should have no problems.

You obv need to check that insurance company allows this and if hiring, they will no doubt have the rules all mixed up etc.

There is a leaflet you can order through the DVLA, which explains all this as well. Give them a ring...i think its 0870 240 0009. Worked on phones a long time ago, so check their website if that numbers incorrect.

#8 PC MacTablet

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 10:08 AM

nFollowing is taken from Community Transport Association UK and may help:


Driver Licensing: Minibuses - 9 to 16 passengers

Passed car driving test before 1997




- Can drive a minibus for not-for-profit organisation

- Can be paid for driving But…

- Cannot drive minibus abroad

- Cannot drive for a commercial company in UK

- Age 70 must pass medical to renew 'minibus entitlement'.


Passed car driving test 1997 or after: more restricted

- May drive minibus in UK only but all these conditions apply:

- 21 or over

- Held full licence for 2 years

- Driving on voluntary basis

- Minibus used by not-for-profit organisation

- Minibus max weight (MAM or GVW) no more than 3.5 tonnes (4.25 if accessible)

- Must not tow a trailer

- Age 70 must pass medical to renew this entitlement


Teachers Driving Minibuses (1)


- 2006 – guidance issued by DfES (Department for Education and Skills) and separately by DfT (Department for Transport)

- Teachers and other school employees – 'incidental drivers'

- No compulsion to drive = not in job description, no extra pay

- Voluntary derogation applies = rules on previous slide

Caution:

- Weight limits apply

- Not tested in court.



Teachers Driving Minibuses (2) - Caution


- Guidance is not a legally binding document

- Paid staff on 'B' licences may still face prosecution

- Possibility of test case

- Could result in prosecution for:

- Driving without correct entitlement and consequently,

- Driving without insurance.


Edit to tidy up formatting

Edited by NikScotland, 11 February 2009 - 01:52 PM.


#9 Gramayr

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 11:53 AM

Slightly off topic,

Wasn't there a change in licenses that stopped people driving the larger LWB Landrover with extra seats in the back as there was one too many seats to be acceptable on a standard driving licence?

I remember this topic being brought up on another forum by a retired constable saying folks with these vehicles had to be careful as even removing the extra fold up seats in the rear didn't change the vehicle seat number classification as it was still capable of carrying that number of people.

#10 panda plodder

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 12:49 PM

I did wonder if this was thread about looking into ways of driving a Police van without the D1 category, think on this occassion it would be viewed as employment even if voluntary.


Tbh I find it absurd that people are allowed to drive community vehicles without having the proper cats on their licence. The tightening up came from the fatal crash involving a school mini bus where the teacher driving fell asleep and crashed into the back of a lorry carrying gas canisters, the resulting fire killed the teacher and several pupils who were passengers.

I would not personally be comfortable allowing any kid to be driven in a mini bus by a volunteer who doesn't have the correct cats, its a loop hole and one which should be closed.

#11 Gramayr

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 01:41 PM

here's a link to entitlements that I've just Googled.

Just looking at the back of my licence (passed in '95) I have the following..

B, BE, C1, C1E, D1, D1E, f,k,l,n,p and prov' for A and GH

I noticed I have more than my sister who had passed after '97
anyone know what newer licenses have on them entitlement wise for comparison?


Edited by Cheetah, 01 May 2014 - 05:38 PM.
broken link removed


#12 PC MacTablet

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 01:55 PM

I noticed I have more than my sister who had passed after '97
anyone know what newer licenses have on them entitlement wise for comparison?


Proabaly what is one your sisters - e.g. no E no D and no C. Can't comment on any motorbike ones.

#13 pjenx

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 02:14 PM

CATEGORIES SHOWN ON LICENCE AFTER OBTAINING FULL CATEGORY B [/color]FROM 1ST JANUARY 1997

FULL ENTITLEMENT
B B1 F K P
PROVISIONAL ENTITLEMENTA BE G H

BEFORE 1ST JANUARY 1997 -[color="#ff00ff"] Until 31st December 1996 a person passing a category B driving test also received the following entitlement: -

FULL ENTITLEMENTB BE B1* F K L N P C1 C1E(8.25 tonnes) D1 D1E (not for hire of reward)

PROVISIONAL ENTITLEMENTA G H
(as per original licence)


* Category B1 entitlement is not shown on the licence unless the driver has passed a B1 test.


CAT B (for the landrover) Is basically the following

1. Limited to up to 8 passenger seats
2. Limited to small vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM
3. Drawing a trailer with a maximum authorised mass not exceeding 750kgs (allowing a combined weight of 4.25 tonnes)
4. Or a vehicle combination of up to 3.5 tonnes MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle


If you car/van/landrover is less than 3.5 tonns its a cat b.

If its got installed more than the 8 passenger seats, regardless of whether they fold down or not then its a minibus category (D1)

Hope this helps

Edited by pjenx, 11 February 2009 - 02:15 PM.


#14 Gramayr

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 02:22 PM

Ah, thanks..
Can't believe I'd have to pass another test to drive a 'Plaggy Rat'* :prone: :D

Saves me the embarrassment if anyone asks me to drive theirs :D

*Reliant Robin

Edit: Thanks for the Landrover info - I can let my mate know, he thought the change covered everyone irrespective of when they passed their licence.

Edited by Gramayr, 11 February 2009 - 02:25 PM.


#15 Top Cat

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 10:01 PM

[quote name='panda plodder' date='Feb 11 2009, 12:49 PM' post='15159
I would not personally be comfortable allowing any kid to be driven in a mini bus by a volunteer who doesn't have the correct cats, its a loop hole and one which should be closed.
[/quote]

Think on this then.
I have D1. Not because I have passed a DSA test to get it, but because I passed my test long enough ago to get it automaticly.
I'm licenced but (could potentially be) no better trained than the person you are not comfortable about...

Essentially, any car driver with common sense and an appreciation of basic physics and dynamics should be fine though.

#16 panda plodder

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 11:33 PM

[quote name='Top Cat' post='1516325' date='Feb 11 2009, 10:01 PM'][quote name='panda plodder' date='Feb 11 2009, 12:49 PM' post='15159
I would not personally be comfortable allowing any kid to be driven in a mini bus by a volunteer who doesn't have the correct cats, its a loop hole and one which should be closed.


Think on this then.
I have D1. Not because I have passed a DSA test to get it, but because I passed my test long enough ago to get it automaticly.
I'm licenced but (could potentially be) no better trained than the person you are not comfortable about...

Essentially, any car driver with common sense and an appreciation of basic physics and dynamics should be fine though.[/quote]

well its another argument now that Driving Standards are different, obvious by the shocking skill level of most drivers

#17 Waddy

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 12:18 AM

Apparently the police and firebrigades were offered an exemption to the D1 requirements some years ago and declined it leading to the situation now where a number of forces are struggling for frontline van drivers, to the extent certainly in mine that the force has now had to accredit itself as a DSA Driving test centre for D1 Theory and Practical tests and put officers through. I was one of the first to get mine, the process involves medical, apply for provisional D1, take PCV theory test (100 questions (pass mark 85) and 19 hazard perception videos) including tachograph questions and airbrakes etc! Before then being given a 3 day course of driving instruction from the driving school before sitting the 1.25 - 1.5 hour practical test!!

#18 Markdn

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 12:26 AM

Apparently the police and firebrigades were offered an exemption to the D1 requirements some years ago and declined it leading to the situation now where a number of forces are struggling for frontline van drivers, to the extent certainly in mine that the force has now had to accredit itself as a DSA Driving test centre for D1 Theory and Practical tests and put officers through. I was one of the first to get mine, the process involves medical, apply for provisional D1, take PCV theory test (100 questions (pass mark 85) and 19 hazard perception videos) including tachograph questions and airbrakes etc! Before then being given a 3 day course of driving instruction from the driving school before sitting the 1.25 - 1.5 hour practical test!!


Has anyone ever thought of just taking out the 9th seat in a carrier to drop back down to 8, thus removing the need for D1? Might be cheaper than a force becoming a DSA test centre.

This of course is assuming the carrier then meets the weight requirements of Cat B.

#19 Waddy

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 02:30 PM

They would need to drop to 7 not 8, once you hit 8 it is a D1 class vehicle, the weight is going to be extremely close to the edge of a B catagory vehicle, the mini bus we took our test in was over (4.25 tonne). If you remove the 8th seat you can no longer put a PSU inside (Driver, Sgt, + 6 PC's) and would essentially make the van useless as a PSU carrier.

#20 NJR

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 02:56 PM

[quote name='Top Cat' post='1516325' date='Feb 11 2009, 10:01 PM'][quote name='panda plodder' date='Feb 11 2009, 12:49 PM' post='15159
I would not personally be comfortable allowing any kid to be driven in a mini bus by a volunteer who doesn't have the correct cats, its a loop hole and one which should be closed.


Think on this then.
I have D1. Not because I have passed a DSA test to get it, but because I passed my test long enough ago to get it automaticly.
I'm licenced but (could potentially be) no better trained than the person you are not comfortable about...

Essentially, any car driver with common sense and an appreciation of basic physics and dynamics should be fine though.[/quote]
Exactly this is the problem. Its common sense and spatial awareness.
I have full Class 1 HGV but i'm not allowed D1 as it's now classed as a PCV, even though people were given this up until 12 years ago such as yourself. It's like you say that not all people are comfortable with driving them which is fine.
However I think if you are good enough to drive it then you should be given it.

Apparently it was a safety issue that they stopped issuing all the C1 and D1 catergories along with trailers, according to the DSA.
But in reality it was an EU directive from 1995 that came into law on the 1st of January 1997, that basically stated it was an unsafe practice and it should stop.

Edited by NJR, 12 February 2009 - 02:56 PM.


#21 PC MacTablet

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 04:18 PM

[I have D1. Not because I have passed a DSA test to get it, but because I passed my test long enough ago to get it automaticly.
I'm licenced but (could potentially be) no better trained than the person you are not comfortable about...


Which is why schemes such as the Minibus Driver Awareness Scheme (MiDAS) exist (I am the trainer for my place of work).

Not all car drivers are happy with larger vehicles, or the responsibility driving a minibus brings. 17 Seat minibuses are particularly large if your regular drive is a Corsa or something similar and although some people take to the transfer with ease others benefit from additional input.

Edited by NikScotland, 12 February 2009 - 04:20 PM.


#22 harrogate_al

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 04:34 AM

I find it quite funny that I can drive a fully laden transit van for my previous paid employment (normally pushed right upto the maximum allowed weight) however cannot drive an empty transit van that just happens to have a few empty seats in the back... I know there comes an extra responsibility as such when you have a large number of people in the vehicle but I drive planning on not being involved in an accident anyway (and every occasion I have had to turn down driving a "minibus" the darn thing has been empty anyway!)

I may be missing something but wouldn't it make more sense to limit the amount of passengers a driver could carry rather than the amount of seats (empty or not?) that are capable of being used in a vehicle? This would ease a lot of pressure on police forces (we all know how often these carriers in the police are actually full!) along with a lot of other organisations i'm sure.

#23 pjenx

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 08:18 AM

9 seats is fine...

The rule for cat b allows you to drive a vehicle up to 3.5t with up to 8 PASSENGER seats...so your driver seat is not counted in this.


DEFINITION Any motor vehicle other than a vehicle included in category A, F, K or P, having a maximum authorised mass not exceeding 3.5 tonnes and not more than 8 seats in addition to the driver's seat, including-
(i) a combination of such a vehicle and a trailer where the trailer has maximum authorised mass not exceeding 750kg and
(ii) a combination of such vehicle and a trailer where the maximum authorised mass of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and the maximum authorised mass of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the tractor vehicle.

#24 Waddy

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 01:27 PM

I find it quite funny that I can drive a fully laden transit van for my previous paid employment (normally pushed right upto the maximum allowed weight) however cannot drive an empty transit van that just happens to have a few empty seats in the back... I know there comes an extra responsibility as such when you have a large number of people in the vehicle but I drive planning on not being involved in an accident anyway (and every occasion I have had to turn down driving a "minibus" the darn thing has been empty anyway!)

I may be missing something but wouldn't it make more sense to limit the amount of passengers a driver could carry rather than the amount of seats (empty or not?) that are capable of being used in a vehicle? This would ease a lot of pressure on police forces (we all know how often these carriers in the police are actually full!) along with a lot of other organisations i'm sure.


I find it quite funny that now I have taken and passed my D1 I can drive a minibus of any weight restricted only by seats with the lives of up to 16 people on board which could take it up to say 5 tonnes or more with luggage, but I can't drive the same van if you take the seats out filled with cardboard boxes of not a lot because that makes it a C1 vehicle!! To be fair, I think it should be one test for both!

#25 Rocket

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 07:38 PM

Here is the link from Hertfordshire County Council whose jurisdiction covers me; Clicky lots of useful information.

Teachers in this County need a minibus permit, and voluntary groups go for it too if they don't want their backsides sued off in the event of an incident.

Talking of Land Rovers, my 110 Defender has 12 seats (a complete nightmare to insure as I'm sure you can imagine)
I am fortunate though that I have an HCC minibus permit and this allows me to drive my own Landy! :prone:




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