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#26 richr

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 10:56 PM

http://en.m.wikipedi...ction#section_4

I imagine a similar organisation would be created if this passed. It would probably be quite a good idea really, if we didn't mess it up in a typical British fashion.

In relation to the issue of firearms, what's the problem? It would negate the need for dedicated local cops patroling the terminals armed.

 

Probably because the armed police aren't dealing with immigration or border issues; I suspect that a move to deploy armed immigration officials would be matched with a "fine, police your own bleedin' terminals then" from the local force, followed by UKBA striking a quick deal with BTP.



#27 Jeebs

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 11:22 PM

To be fair, I don't really think that's a bad thing. BTP cops are used to dealing with transient groups in high flow situations, e.g. A few thousand people per hour.

With Police powers they wouldn't really need "ordinary" cops there anyway. I can't actually remember the last time I saw a polis at an airport to be honest, even at Manchester they are few and far between. There are however, quite a number of UKBA staff about.

#28 TangoDown

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 11:49 PM

To be fair, I don't really think that's a bad thing. BTP cops are used to dealing with transient groups in high flow situations, e.g. A few thousand people per hour.

With Police powers they wouldn't really need "ordinary" cops there anyway. I can't actually remember the last time I saw a polis at an airport to be honest, even at Manchester they are few and far between. There are however, quite a number of UKBA staff about.

 

There's a Norpol desk as Newcastle Airport, and i'm yet, to see an officer there.



#29 Jeebs

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 11:59 PM

I think there's 2 cops and a CSO or something like that ;) They're known as the Airport NPT or something silly.

#30 richr

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:22 AM

In fairness, I was thinking more about the London terminals where there tends to be a reasonably high met presence!



#31 Hull_9

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 07:56 AM

Probably because the armed police aren't dealing with immigration or border issues; I suspect that a move to deploy armed immigration officials would be matched with a "fine, police your own bleedin' terminals then" from the local force, followed by UKBA striking a quick deal with BTP.

 

Agreed... there's been a long-standing rumour (which originates from MOD plod officers) that MOD Plod may merge with UKBF.



Think your mixing BTP with ports police.

 

This makes sense only if they properly trained and equipped. After all its what most countries do (spain, USA both have border police)

 

 

No - I have been around long enough to know what BTP is. Ports Police haven't existed for donkeys.



I'm led to believe that at the moment it's frowned upon to even carry cuffs covertly let alone wear a vest, if they want them to be police then it needs to be looked into if that it correct, I suspect assaults on airport based staff are very rare but would people be more willing to have a go if they're police who let's be honest are seen as fair target amongst a whole sector of society.

 

 

I have been a special for nearly 11 years, and a Border Force Officer (and all the previous formats) for nearly 7. I wear full body armour, overtly; I carry rigid cuffs, and a friction lock baton. Sprays are not a wise concept for inside use... apart from PAVA, maybe at a push.

 

I have only ever used cuffs in UKBF for transportation, as it is policy. It is very rare for people to have a go at us. That said, I have only used CS twice in 11 years, baton once, and never used PAVA. Communication is the best weapon/tool.



#32 Prae

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 08:35 AM

Do you think that if UKBA becomes a Police force you will have to resign as an SC?

#33 thelibrarian

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 09:15 AM

No - I have been around long enough to know what BTP is. Ports Police haven't existed for donkeys.

 

not trying to start an argument but 

 

 

Ports police operating under the Harbours, Docks, and Piers Clauses Act 1847

For every port/harbour, an individual Act of Parliament (or, more recently, a Harbour (Revision) Order) can incorporate parts of the Harbours, Docks, and Piers Clauses Act 1847 (HDPCA) and apply them to that specific port/harbour. Officers of port police forces are sworn in as "special constables" under section 79 of the 1847 Act, as incorporated by the individual local Act. As a result, officers have the full powers of a constable on any land owned by the harbour, dock, or port and at any place within one mile of any owned land. There are 224 constables sworn in under this act.[15] Serious or major incidents or crime generally become the responsibility of the local territorial police force.

[edit]Other ports police

#34 themechanic

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 09:52 AM

Do we feel as though this whole issue is a necessary change to make?



#35 richr

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 10:47 AM

It depends what they're trying to achieve. I can't help but feel the idea behind it is to have some sort of 'show of force' at points of entry so that it looks like Something Is Being Done. In the meantime, the real issues are overstayers and entry on visas sponsored by dodgy establishments combined with the massive backlogs of immigration casework.

 

It strikes me that rather than mucking about creating a new police force, they'd be much better off employing some more staff to do the job that they've already got.



#36 Police Constable 1

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 10:52 AM

"A little like..." How many reg 9s have you been served because of your terrible attitude?

 

 

A little like.......as I pointed out its nothing like

No - I have been around long enough to know what BTP is. Ports Police haven't existed for donkeys.

 

I think you might want to have a chat with those in the Port of Dover police and tell them that............:)



#37 themechanic

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:41 AM

It depends what they're trying to achieve. I can't help but feel the idea behind it is to have some sort of 'show of force' at points of entry so that it looks like Something Is Being Done. In the meantime, the real issues are overstayers and entry on visas sponsored by dodgy establishments combined with the massive backlogs of immigration casework.

 

It strikes me that rather than mucking about creating a new police force, they'd be much better off employing some more staff to do the job that they've already got.

 

I second that, surely the money and resources could be well spent elsewhere and other issuesd as you have just mentioned.

 

I guess we will just have to wait to see the outcome of this new force and see how it works....or not as the case may be.



#38 Hull_9

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:54 AM

In response to Prae - yes, I would imagine so, not that that would be a great loss as the SC is not the same organisation as I joined, and has been flooded with gung-ho youngsters who do thousands of hours just cos they think it will ge them a job in a couple of years, and are all in breach of EWTD, but are never challenged.

 

As for Police Constable 1 - while your attitude stinks, and you clearly need to address your communication skills, I stand corrected on the Port Police thing. There have been no port Police in the north of England for over 20 years; BTP used to police the docks round here.

 

As for, "Is it a good idea?" - it is a great idea, and will make us into a truly credible law enforcement agency. It will also bring us into line with international border security organisations, and no-one will be confused any more. We will be instantly identifiable, and will be able to deal with all the offences that take place on the dock area right in front of us, and that we can currently do nothing about. In the first instance all officers will be Detention at Ports trained, which gives us the power to detain people on behalf of the Police for offences for which they may be arrested by a Constable, and those wanted on warrant. Thereafter, powers will be enhanced and developed. It should also restore some discipline and respect to the organisation.



#39 Sappmer

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:50 PM

Gung-ho youngsters? Aint that a bit of a sweeping statement?

And did you realse that there are two port police forces in the north? The Port of Liverpool police and Tees and Hartlepool

Edited by Sappmer, 03 March 2013 - 01:02 PM.


#40 funkywingnut

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 01:24 PM

In response to Prae - yes, I would imagine so, not that that would be a great loss as the SC is not the same organisation as I joined, and has been flooded with gung-ho youngsters who do thousands of hours just cos they think it will ge them a job in a couple of years, and are all in breach of EWTD, but are never challenged.
 
As for Police Constable 1 - while your attitude stinks, and you clearly need to address your communication skills, I stand corrected on the Port Police thing. There have been no port Police in the north of England for over 20 years; BTP used to police the docks round here.

 
As for, "Is it a good idea?" - it is a great idea, and will make us into a truly credible law enforcement agency. It will also bring us into line with international border security organisations, and no-one will be confused any more. We will be instantly identifiable, and will be able to deal with all the offences that take place on the dock area right in front of us, and that we can currently do nothing about. In the first instance all officers will be Detention at Ports trained, which gives us the power to detain people on behalf of the Police for offences for which they may be arrested by a Constable, and those wanted on warrant. Thereafter, powers will be enhanced and developed. It should also restore some discipline and respect to the organisation.

What about tees port police? They are definitely in the north of England?

#41 159

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 01:28 PM

Inland enforcement teams who are part of the Border agency under the NCA are just for the sake of clarification a different of organisation to to Borderforce officers. UKBA having split again back into its component parts. We are no longer a singular agency. Inland Enforcement teams have now been re branded as ICE teams. No not Immigration and Customs Enforcement as per their american agency friends. But an all together more depressingly Home Office title of Immigration compliance and Engagement teams.*sigh*

#42 Forlorn Hope

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 05:01 PM

I have been a special for nearly 11 years, and a Border Force Officer (and all the previous formats) for nearly 7. I wear full body armour, overtly; I carry rigid cuffs, and a friction lock baton. Sprays are not a wise concept for inside use... apart from PAVA, maybe at a push.

 

I have only ever used cuffs in UKBF for transportation, as it is policy. It is very rare for people to have a go at us. That said, I have only used CS twice in 11 years, baton once, and never used PAVA. Communication is the best weapon/tool.

I was thinking more the guys and girls at the desks I know the enforcement bods wear full PPE as I've been on site when they've been arresting 



#43 TheKnight_RS

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 12:57 PM

As for Police Constable 1 - while your attitude stinks, and you clearly need to address your communication skills, I stand corrected on the Port Police thing. There have been no port Police in the north of England for over 20 years; BTP used to police the docks round here.

 

I can see no attitude given to you by PC1, so if you want to make a statement, make it without the attack on what you think about someone's attitude.

 

PC1 has the right to challenge your view as he is a serving officer himself, so him trying to prove a point or argue against a statement he may think is false does not mean his attitude stinks.


Edited by TheKnight_RS, 06 March 2013 - 01:12 PM.


#44 Police Constable 1

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 01:11 PM

Border police would be a good idea, but what would their remit be, would they get involved in every day crimes at the areas they "police" if so would the stakeholders have a say in it? or would they be required to fund it



#45 nogbad

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 07:52 AM

I can see why the enforcement teams who go out actively seeking overstayers etc in the community need uniforms, PPE etc. Putting desk staff in uniform however comes across as a bit of "smoke and mirrors" to con the public they are something more than they are.



#46 Prae

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 11:19 AM

But with this new legislation they would be more than they are now.

#47 MindTheGap

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 12:22 PM

Regarding resigning as an SC, surely a Border Police would be constables, that's not a conflict of interest - you can in theory be a reg and an SC in two different forces.



#48 Prae

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 02:21 PM

You can't be an SC if you're a "member of a police force" according to the home office. That would prevent a PC being an SC in another force and a Border Police officer also by my reckoning.

Edited by Prae, 12 March 2013 - 02:22 PM.


#49 Proteus

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 06:09 PM

You can't be an SC if you're a "member of a police force" according to the home office. That would prevent a PC being an SC in another force and a Border Police officer also by my reckoning.

Where do they say this? The only similar thing I can find on the NPIA circular is: "Members of employers’ police forces and private constabularies are ineligible to be appointed as special constables." (And that's to do with the lesser powers of such constables, which rationale presumably wouldn't apply here.)



#50 antsimkins

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:53 PM

In response to Prae - yes, I would imagine so, not that that would be a great loss as the SC is not the same organisation as I joined, and has been flooded with gung-ho youngsters who do thousands of hours just cos they think it will ge them a job in a couple of years, and are all in breach of EWTD, but are never challenged.

 

Just as a small question, and by no means trying to imply anyone is wrong here; do your force not require, or offer the opportunity for, you to opt out of the Working Time Directives? I'm a young special with aspirations to join the regular force in a few years, and do currently give a lot of my time to duty hours, and may breach WTD's occasionally - but I signed to say I was happy to do this. Is this not the same in all forces?







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