Jump to content


Photo
* * * * - 3 votes

'Local Authority Constables' - Interesting Find.


  • Please log in to reply
79 replies to this topic

#26 Forlorn Hope

Forlorn Hope

    Forum Obsessed!

  • Members
  • 3,598 posts

Posted 24 December 2012 - 05:55 PM

Because it provides a power of arrest. Council officers who get told to jog on have no power to arrest/detain.


not strictly true but is a bit of a grey area I've seen people arrested using any person powers to prevent a BoP after swearing at and threatening violence towards council officers

#27 MerseyLLB

MerseyLLB

    Forum Obsessed!

  • Members
  • 6,188 posts

Posted 24 December 2012 - 06:34 PM

not strictly true but is a bit of a grey area I've seen people arrested using any person powers to prevent a BoP after swearing at and threatening violence towards council officers


Not a grey area. Council officers hold no office providing arrest or detention powers.

It is every persons duty and right to prevent a BOP, from Mrs Miggins up to the Prime Minister.

Attested officers would have backing to arrest persons for byelaw offences/offences relating to open spaces.

#28 Radman

Radman

    Forum Obsessed!

  • Lifetime Power Users+
  • 5,619 posts

Posted 25 December 2012 - 08:15 PM

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Oli" data-cid="2353789" data-time="1356357072"><p>
Why bother when council officers have powers to enforce bylaws anyway, and they can get accredited to enforce similar legistlation to CSO's like seize alcohol, direct traffic etc.</p></blockquote>

Because it would give them a power of arrest outside of 'any person' powers.

Use of force would be better defined and the public would actually have an 'idea' or understanding of what they could and couldn't do.

We've sort-of gone backwards in this country - giving wardens limited and confusing powers that when you really boil them down aren't really worth the paper they are written for the simple reason that a person can say "Nope, I ain't giving you my name - what are you going to do about it."

#29 Oli

Oli

    I'm new!

  • Members
  • 7 posts

Posted 29 December 2012 - 10:45 PM

You would never convince a council to do that, why pay someone more money to do the same job then fork out the extra money for equipment and training. Most council bylaws in parks etc have a power of removal which includes reasonable force to remove someone whos breaking the bylaw. The other thing is constables have no power to enforce dog fouling and control orders. The council littering ticket is also usually a higher fine than the police PND for littering which constables also cant issue.



#30 Forlorn Hope

Forlorn Hope

    Forum Obsessed!

  • Members
  • 3,598 posts

Posted 29 December 2012 - 10:48 PM

 The other thing is constables have no power to enforce dog fouling and control orders.

When they brought in dog control orders they did something so the local SNT could issue them so it is possible



#31 MerseyLLB

MerseyLLB

    Forum Obsessed!

  • Members
  • 6,188 posts

Posted 30 December 2012 - 12:54 AM

You would never convince a council to do that, why pay someone more money to do the same job then fork out the extra money for equipment and training. Most council bylaws in parks etc have a power of removal which includes reasonable force to remove someone whos breaking the bylaw. The other thing is constables have no power to enforce dog fouling and control orders. The council littering ticket is also usually a higher fine than the police PND for littering which constables also cant issue.

 

A council officer attested as a constable still has all the powers of a council officer...



#32 Radman

Radman

    Forum Obsessed!

  • Lifetime Power Users+
  • 5,619 posts

Posted 30 December 2012 - 11:26 AM

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Oli" data-cid="2355718" data-time="1356821139"><p>
You would never convince a council to do that, why pay someone more money to do the same job then fork out the extra money for equipment and training. Most council bylaws in parks etc have a power of removal which includes reasonable force to remove someone whos breaking the bylaw. The other thing is constables have no power to enforce dog fouling and control orders. The council littering ticket is also usually a higher fine than the police PND for littering which constables also cant issue.</p></blockquote>

So why is it Parks Police existed then? (I still think London has one or two remaining)

Would you have to pay Parks Plod anymore then a warden? You certainly wouldn't have to pay them the same wage as a normal Constable as Parks Police now arent paid anywhere near the same.

As for ejectment powers they are never enforced because of the culture we live in today - as a BTP officer you have to be careful with when ejecting people but most are still semi-compliant because they know if they kick off they'll end up getting lifted simply because its a person wearing a police uniform who's doing it.

A council warden comes along and ejects someone (which wouldn't happen since most councils have a 'hands off' policy) the person kicks off because that person thinks the warden is assaulting them - again powers being exercises that aren't clearly defined.

Also they would still be legally entitled to enforce council bye laws just as their wardens do now, they would simply have more 'teeth' to crack on deal with things.

#33 Blakey

Blakey

    Forum Convert

  • Power Users
  • 414 posts

Posted 25 January 2013 - 02:52 PM

I know "Epping Forest Keepers" are still sworn as Officers Under Epping Forest Act 1878 !!!

 

 

 

Does any know if the Kew Constabulary is going (The Kew Constables are attested under section 3 of the Parks Regulation Act 1872)



#34 Forlorn Hope

Forlorn Hope

    Forum Obsessed!

  • Members
  • 3,598 posts

Posted 25 January 2013 - 04:25 PM

I think Kew may have gone can't prove it just something in the back of my mind



#35 Dave SYP

Dave SYP

    Forum Obsessed!

  • Members
  • 5,712 posts

Posted 25 January 2013 - 04:27 PM

In my opinion and I'm sure that Joe Public would agree, anyone with the title 'Constable' should have the powers of a Constable.  It is ridiculous to have a Constable with limited powers.



#36 Forlorn Hope

Forlorn Hope

    Forum Obsessed!

  • Members
  • 3,598 posts

Posted 25 January 2013 - 04:30 PM

In my opinion and I'm sure that Joe Public would agree, anyone with the title 'Constable' should have the powers of a Constable.  It is ridiculous to have a Constable with limited powers.

what would you do with the ones in ports & parks give them full powers which arguably they wouldn't need or use or disband them? 



#37 MerseyLLB

MerseyLLB

    Forum Obsessed!

  • Members
  • 6,188 posts

Posted 25 January 2013 - 04:55 PM

what would you do with the ones in ports & parks give them full powers which arguably they wouldn't need or use or disband them? 

 

Ports have full powers. Parks need full powers, if they didn't need them then why does the Met patrol parks?



#38 Forlorn Hope

Forlorn Hope

    Forum Obsessed!

  • Members
  • 3,598 posts

Posted 25 January 2013 - 04:58 PM

Ports have full powers. Parks need full powers, if they didn't need them then why does the Met patrol parks?

the Met doesn't patrol all parks thou at least in London a few boroughs still have parks patrols in one form or another who patrol areas that the met don't

 

when I say full powers I mean powers not limited by geography etc it's no point getting a mile from the port/park and not being able to act



#39 MerseyLLB

MerseyLLB

    Forum Obsessed!

  • Members
  • 6,188 posts

Posted 25 January 2013 - 05:03 PM

the Met doesn't patrol all parks thou at least in London a few boroughs still have parks patrols in one form or another who patrol areas that the met don't

 

when I say full powers I mean powers not limited by geography etc it's no point getting a mile from the port/park and not being able to act

 

Why do they need any more than 'vicinity' or 'in relation to' jurisdiction? If they are patrolling parks then that is their focus. If they are much more than a mile away from the parks...why are they there?

 

The Met DO patrol all parks. They might not have 'Safer Parks Teams' for every park, but the Met still go in them!



#40 Forlorn Hope

Forlorn Hope

    Forum Obsessed!

  • Members
  • 3,598 posts

Posted 25 January 2013 - 05:09 PM

The Met DO patrol all parks. They might not have 'Safer Parks Teams' for every park, but the Met still go in them!

With all due respect I happen to know of some parks within London that are lucky to be driven past once a week, when the borough had parks constables they were patrolled/checked twice a day minimum



#41 MerseyLLB

MerseyLLB

    Forum Obsessed!

  • Members
  • 6,188 posts

Posted 25 January 2013 - 05:29 PM

With all due respect I happen to know of some parks within London that are lucky to be driven past once a week, when the borough had parks constables they were patrolled/checked twice a day minimum

 

Well that is a matter to take up with the relevant SNT.



#42 Forlorn Hope

Forlorn Hope

    Forum Obsessed!

  • Members
  • 3,598 posts

Posted 25 January 2013 - 06:09 PM

possibly but I suspect unless there's a serious of indecent assaults or large scale drug dealing the resources are seen to be better placed elsewhere- after all "it's only a park"



#43 Milankovitch

Milankovitch

    Forum Obsessed!

  • Members
  • 3,545 posts

Posted 25 January 2013 - 06:31 PM

If I'm totally honest, I would be extremely wary if my local council created their own police force. I don't trust them not to run a force intent on handing out tickets for all sorts in a revenue generating exercise.



#44 Forlorn Hope

Forlorn Hope

    Forum Obsessed!

  • Members
  • 3,598 posts

Posted 25 January 2013 - 06:59 PM

why? before the early 1970s there were dozens if not hundreds of borough constabularies



#45 Milankovitch

Milankovitch

    Forum Obsessed!

  • Members
  • 3,545 posts

Posted 25 January 2013 - 07:18 PM

why? before the early 1970s there were dozens if not hundreds of borough constabularies

They don't cover themselves in glory with parking "enforcement".



#46 Forlorn Hope

Forlorn Hope

    Forum Obsessed!

  • Members
  • 3,598 posts

Posted 25 January 2013 - 07:22 PM

you do know the vast majority of parking is subcontracted out to people like NCP, paid by manpower and trained by a third firm who[s name I forget, just because they're in council uniform does not mean they're council officers



#47 Milankovitch

Milankovitch

    Forum Obsessed!

  • Members
  • 3,545 posts

Posted 25 January 2013 - 07:32 PM

you do know the vast majority of parking is subcontracted out to people like NCP, paid by manpower and trained by a third firm who[s name I forget, just because they're in council uniform does not mean they're council officers

Yes I do. The council however have involvement at various points and their service is absolutely dire. I do not trust my local council to run a police force. I also wouldn't trust the council I work for to run a police force either but for entirely different reasons.



#48 Radman

Radman

    Forum Obsessed!

  • Lifetime Power Users+
  • 5,619 posts

Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:03 PM

If I'm totally honest, I would be extremely wary if my local council created their own police force. I don't trust them not to run a force intent on handing out tickets for all sorts in a revenue generating exercise.

 

Why not?

 

In my opinion it would solve ALOT of problems, so long as they were regulated properly and came under the umbrella of the IPCC.

 

We're in a situation now where we've given private firms responsibility for Law Enforcement, private firms provide wardens and now parking attendants. I personally would see it as a step back in the RIGHT direction in having council appointed 'Bodies of Constables' the trick would be to ensure their remit was clearly defined and they were monitored by policing bodies.

 

Lets face facts here, County and local forces arent generally interested in policing low level offences nor do they have the resources to patrol areas anymore.

 

PCSO's seemed to be a plaster on the problem as the public know their powers are very limited (I have first had experience of this myself) and have simply caused more strain on the system as many forces have the policy where a PCSO or warden must call for 'PC assistance' should they encounter resistance.

 

Council Wardens have to do the same, request assistance from the police should someone refuse their details... It isnt acceptable in my opinion.

 

We'll end up giving police powers to private security firms, I'd sooner have things return to the old fashioned model where Councils could swear in 'Constables' in order to enforce certain byelaws then have some profit driven G4S rent-a-cop holding a warrant card...

 

Criminal law/Statute law would still remain with local Home Office forces for investigation.


Edited by Radman, 25 January 2013 - 08:10 PM.


#49 Milankovitch

Milankovitch

    Forum Obsessed!

  • Members
  • 3,545 posts

Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:13 PM

The IPCC wouldn't have anything to do with it up here, we don't have community support officers (police officers do police work), the council I work for doesn't employ wardens and has no need to, SNT take on loads of low level stuff and I'd love to know where the money to fund their own little private forces will come from. There simply is no need for councils to appoint constables here. If they don't even employ wardens to enforce bye-laws why bother with constables? Just seems like an unecessary waste of money to me.



#50 Radman

Radman

    Forum Obsessed!

  • Lifetime Power Users+
  • 5,619 posts

Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:23 PM

The IPCC wouldn't have anything to do with it up here, we don't have community support officers (police officers do police work), the council I work for doesn't employ wardens and has no need to, SNT take on loads of low level stuff and I'd love to know where the money to fund their own little private forces will come from. There simply is no need for councils to appoint constables here. If they don't even employ wardens to enforce bye-laws why bother with constables? Just seems like an unecessary waste of money to me.

 

Things are very different north of the border, you have a totally different legal system for a start and I get the impression your cops still 'do' foot patrol and tackle ASB on a regular baisis.

 

English and Welsh Law Enforcement has been watered down so much over the years, there are so many different types of 'officers' the public have no idea what any of them can/cant do... Its a mess...

 

I cant remember the last time I saw a PC on foot patrol in my town - on a friday/saturday night all the cops in my city centre are Specials, thats the only time you'll see them.

 

i've seen PCSO's ineffectivley talking to a group of youths once and walking around but people know what they can and cant do - in my county it turns out PCSO's cant do much at all (thats right, its up to the CC of every force to designate what their CSO's can and cant do - its stupid and confusing! How is the publc supposed to have any trust of faith in the system?)

 

Maybe its because i'm from a specialist police force, I see the benefits in it and believe it would work nationwide - I also know HO forces have bigger fish to fry then to report peope for byelaw offences/low level ASB stuff - However WE still do it in BTP and im somewhat proud of that fact... If someone is acting a prat they will be dealt with 9 times out of 10 for SOMETHING under the byelaws.

 

The youths have learnt (very slowly) not to mess around with the 'railway cops' because they'll end up in court for something, of course another group will take over once you've got rid of one lot but thats just the way it goes.


Edited by Radman, 25 January 2013 - 08:30 PM.





0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users